Vorkosigan

Wardy, it is widely understood that the writers of the NT testament copied Psalm 22 when inventing the story of Jesus' death. How do we know this? Because the Synoptic (Mark, Matt, and Luke) gospel writers did not use the Hebrew bible when they wrote. Instead, they used a Greek translation called the Septaugint (the LXX). The cites and quotes in the Mark (for example) come from Psalm 21 of the LXX, Psalm 22 in our current bibles. It is highly unlikely that Jesus ran around quoting a Greek translation of the hebrew scriptures to his followers, admirers, and enemies. Additionally, the way that the Synoptics and John quote the Septaugint shows that the scenes are constructed rather than reported. For example, the Synoptics do not create a lot of symbolism out of the rending of Jesus' garments and the casting of lots, but John does. This heavy overlay of these events with Psalm 21 (or 22) makes it very difficult to claim that any of these were historical events.

The larger problem with your paragraph is that it assumes that the gospels are faithfully reporting events as they occurred. Only highly conservative scholars believe that. Most scholars who read the gospels take the position that they represent real events that have become heavily fictionalized and layered with Old Testament quotes, though they differ on what is fiction and what is not. Thus, the problem is (to cite a famous scholar): are we looking at history remembered, or prophecy historicized? Finding out what is actually history in there is very difficult.

I'll give you an example. Mark 1:16-20 gives the famous calling of the apostles. Most scholars see this as parallel to Elijah's calling of Elisha. Note the parallels, listed in Brodie (2000, p91):

*the action begins with a caller...and with motion toward those to be called;
*those called are working (plowing/fishing);
*the call, whether by gesture (Elijah) or word (Jesus) is brief;
*later, the means of livelihood are variously destroyed or mended, the plow
is destroyed, but the nets are mended -- a typical inversion of images...;
*after further movement, there is a leave-taking of home;
*there is also a leave-taking of other workers;
*finally, those who called follow the caller.

Now, hardly anyone denies that the early movement had apostles. What is at issue here is: is this an actual historical event, depicted faithfully, or has the writer of Mark chosen to recast more complex historical events as OT drama? How do we know which answer to choose?

Vorkosigan

Amaleq13

If it actually said "hands and feet", you might have a point but it doesn't.

In addition, it is my understanding that the piercing described is related to the teeth of the dogs/lions.

Crucifixion has to be read into this text.

Tiberius

I'd hardly say that the knowledge of merging Quantum mechanics with Newtonian physics is equally as trivial as the lotto numbers however. To be able to merge those two branches of science would advance our knoweldge a tremendous amount.

Also, if the Bible is so accurate, why aren't the historical stories of it told in any place other than religious books? Why have we never found evidence of a huge world wide flood with the skeletons of all the little animals that died? It seems to me that your point is "The Bible is true, because the stories told in it actually happened. I know they happened because they're in the Bible." By the same logic, I can claim the Harry Potter is also real.

Gabe the Angel

Hi Tiberius

You lost me a little on your reply, I for one regard the Bible as fiction not fact. The topic is that the brainwashed amongst us are fed answers that fit in with the Bible, however the Bible does not fit in with fact. So when I ask, Is all knowledge in the Bible, I do so on the basis that the reply is all made up and distorted, So many followers share the fantasy whilst the rest of us sit back in bewilderment at their world. I hope that this view does not offend too many people and that we can all accept each others opinion, and their is the irony in it all, how can fact be an opinion, they are either correct or wrong, I honestly believe they do not care either way, they are going to live forever while the rest of us will rot in hell. And the reason is that they believe the Bible has all the answers and we do not.