Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gstafleu · 10-29-2007, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

El Shaddai means either El of Breasts or El of the Mountains. One link I found suggests this diety comes from an area with 2 rounded peaked mountains in Mesopotamia (didnt save the link).

Jus as an aside, this is reminiscent of

Ninhursag, the "lady of the mountain," who also was "the earth and mother-goddess" of the Sumerians. She was also known to the Babylonians, so it is not all that unlikely that the

Deuteronomist had heard of her.

Gerard Stafleu

Clivedurdle · 10-29-2007, 01:21 PM

Sounds like we may have a forerunner of Mary here! And this is fascinating!

Quote:

Her symbol the omega (Ω) has been depicted in art from around 3000 BC, though more generally from the early second millennium. It appears on some boundary stones - on the upper tier, which indicates her importance

Might xianity only be ancient mythologies morphed into new times and places?

Magdlyn · 10-29-2007, 01:24 PM

No! Surely not!

Clivedurdle · 10-29-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

According to the narratives of 2 Kings & 2 Chronicles, in 622/621 BC, Josiah's high priest Hilkiah found part of the Torah in the Temple, a mainly spartan and empty building. In reaction to the text, King Josiah again centralised the religion, and destroyed places and objects of worship which were neither the Jerusalem Temple nor specified to be housed in it. Since before the 5th century scholars (such as Jerome) have insisted that the text found by Hilkiah was the law code of Deuteronomy. Scholars allege that the text was written at Josiah's instigation and "found" to justify his actions, particularly since the text claims[citation needed] Moses had left it next to the Ark of the Covenant in the Tabernacle.

According to the DH, the Priests of Shiloh wrote the law code to support their views. The code was written to support the king, a centralised religion, Levites generally rather than just Aaronids, and a balance on the king's power (for example by supporting a militia rather than an organised army) due to the way in which kings had previously treated them.

D then created, according to the hypothesis, a history of rulers, judging them by their actions according to the code, culminating in Josiah. D inserted the law code at the start, framed as Moses' last words since D was not trying to change the pre-existing JE account. The purpose of this was to show that Josiah's rule was an act of God, Josiah being the hero to save Israel - a Moshiach. Josiah was the only person described as being comparable to Moses. The story of Josiah reflected the wording given by Moses in D, terms such as "do not turn, right or left", "and none arose like him", and "Love god with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might", are only ascribed to or of Moses and to or of Josiah in the whole of the Deuteronomical history. Parallels are not described between Moses and other kings.

Should we be looking for parallels between Josiah and Jesus?

Clivedurdle · 10-29-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

No! Surely not!

I need a guide for the next time I go into a catholic church that clearly points out that is from there and that goes back to....

El Shaddai being a goddess - very interesting!

DCHindley · 10-29-2007, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

"Yahweh taking care of Israel" is a direct quote of the Jerusalem Bible comment on this verse.

Are El Shaddai and Most High the same? Is this evidence of zoroastrian thinking?

El Shaddai means either El of Breasts or El of the Mountains. One link I found suggests this diety comes from an area with 2 rounded peaked mountains in Mesopotamia (didnt save the link).

El Elyon means El Most High.

El Shaddai is found in verses related to fertility, which is why the breast connection makes sense to me. I think of El Shaddai as a female diety.

El Elyon seems to be the head of a pantheon. A different god.

Conflation of gods was common in the ancient world, of course. Both were later conflated with Yahweh.

1 Enoch 10:1-5 "1 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, 2 and said to him: Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come 3 upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape 4 and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world. And again the Lord said to Raphael: Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein."

The footnote for vs 5 in R H Charles' translation says that "Dudael" means "twin breasts" and probably refered to a twin peaked mountain. Is this passage what you were thinking of when you made your statement above?

DCH

Magdlyn · 10-29-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

1 Enoch 10:1-5 "1 Then said the Most High, ... and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein."

The footnote for vs 5 in R H Charles' translation says that "Dudael" means "twin breasts" and probably refered to a twin peaked mountain. Is this passage what you were thinking of when you made your statement above?

DCH

No. It wasn't a scripture passage. I just spent some time looking and couldn't find the ref I am remembering about twin mts on the Euphrates and the diety that lived there.

There is a lot of info on the web on the "breast" connotation of Shaddai.
Twin mountains (and their similarity to breasts) symbology are also not lacking. Mt. Sinai and Mt Zion, Mt. Gerizim and Mt. Ebal.

spin and i had a go round with this a week or two ago. He objected to the double D (oh! LOL) in shaddai, which he claims would not occur in the Hebrew for breasts. He told me to stop talking about it and run.

But knowing the pleasure the Bible writers took in pun and plays on words, we can be fairly confident, I think, that the mountain/breast connotation is there.

"Destroyer" and "almighty" however, seem to be the 2 translations that make no sense.

Magdlyn · 10-29-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I need a guide for the next time I go into a catholic church that clearly points out that is from there and that goes back to....

Take a look at this website. Lots of fun.

http://www.entheology.org/POCM/getti...rted_pocm.html

Jedi Mind Trick · 10-29-2007, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Sub plot in thread in grd is probably worth discussing further.

Quote:

Jerusalem Bible has a most interesting footnote

At Deuteronomy 32 8 it has

Quote:
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided the sons of men, he fixed their bounds according to the number of the sons of God*

Quote:
*I.e the angels, meaning the guardian angels of the nations cf Dan 10 13. But Yahweh himself takes care of Israel.

Is there an agreed definition of the pantheons of the gods and how it has changed?

This looks like Most High is in charge and he has sons - including Yahweh who is an angel responsible for Israel. So who was responsible for Judea?

So is the Hebrew Bible Herges Adventures of Yahweh, and therefore the Most High has a grand son Jesus?

I've read where this literally means "according to the number of the sons of El" and that number is 70, the same number that the nations are divided into. This idea also has that Yahweh is one of the 70 sons of El, that would make Baal his brother. I've never seen a complete list of the 70 sons of El though but I have seen Yahweh linked to a god called Yaw and sometimes to Ea. I don't know how valid it is, but I have also seen Exodus 3:14 rendered "...Ea Ea(instead of hayah hayah)... Ea hath sent me unto you.". Doesn't really sound legit to me, but it's interesting nonetheless. Ea was the Sumerian god of the waters not very close to what we see in Yahweh, basically a sky god, but the name is phonetically close. here is an interesting site.

John Kesler · 10-30-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

...This looks like Most High is in charge and he has sons - including Yahweh who is an angel responsible for Israel...

The discussion of Yahweh's relationship to El has been much discussed. Here is a fairy recent post.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-29-2007, 01:24 PM	#13
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	No! Surely not!

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.