Matt the Medic

Ancient Egypt: (BCE way the heck before anything else) Had no real hospitals, but did engage in quite a bit of early medicine at temples- some of which was surprisingly accurate given the time.

Ancient Asia: King Pandukabhaya of Sri Lanka (BCE 400's) built dedicated hospitals called Sivikasotthi-Sala around his country. See Mihintale Hospital, which is the oldest documented one in history.

Ancient Greece: Temples to Asclepius (BCE 300's), the god of medicine, called asclepeia where the sick would congregate to bathe and rest. The works of Hippocrates are incredibly important to the foundations of medicine. Physicians today still take the Hippocratic oath and the symbol of medicine is the Rod of Asclepius, for reference.

Ancient India: King Ashoka (BCE 200's) created 18 free hospitals across the country, with all treatment costs paid for by the royal treasury.

Ancient Rome: valetudinaria (BCE 100's) were military hospitals to tend to injured soldiers and slaves. The Roman army had dedicated medical programs and the resulting doctors were highly trained and specialized.

Ancient China: Created hospitals in the first century CE.

Persia: had the first teaching hospital in the Academy of Gundishapur around 400-600ish CE.

And so on.


By no means am I discounting the contribution of religious hospitals over the last 500 years. I'm just showing that the evolution of the hospital is one borne to all humanity and not Christianity.

Potoooooooo

I must say this James Hannam fellow seems like a much nicer chap than Bede!

aa5874

Does anyone know the science behind 'Holy Water' and its chemical, or supernatural composition? I am intrigued by the effectiveness of such a remedy and its failure rate. I understand this 'Water' is still in production from since 1500 years ago.

See http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/06/..._17.190.45.htm

Toto

Your link goes to a Situla, which was also used in the religion of Isis for holy water from the Nile. It appears to be used in religious ritual, not medicine. Situlas are still used in church ritual.

The science would involve the placebo effect.

aa5874

I understand that Holy Water was being used in exorcisms, but people who had mental problems and epilepsy may have been mis-diagnosed as having a spiritual defect requiring some of that non-placebo Water.

Stephen T-B

I wonder...
Was the purpose of this thread to convince an audience that the Catholic Church did not perpetuate ignorance and superstition down the ages?
If so, then the matter of Holy Water is, I think, crucial to the discussion.

(And I suppose someone might then want to mention the doctrine of Transubstantiation...)

No Robots

The Belgian anatomist Vesalius was appalled by established theories of the brain propounded by scholastic philosophers:

If by accurate and painstaking examination of the parts of the brain and from an observation of the other parts of the body, the use of which is obvious even to one little practised in dissection, some analogy were traceable, or if I could reach any probable conclusion, I would set out, if I could do so without injury to our Most Holy Religion. For who… Oh Immortal God… can fail to be astonished at the host of contemporary philosophers and even theologians who detract ridiculously from the divine and most wonderful contrivance (admirabili machinae) of man's brain. For they fabricate, like a Prometheus out of their own dreams — dreams blaspheming the Founder (Conditor) of the human fabric — some image of the brain, while they refuse to see that structure which the Maker of Nature has wrought, with incredible foresight, to accommodate it to the actions of the body. Putting before themselves the image which they have formed, which abounds in so many incongruent (inartificiosis) monstrosities, little do they heed — oh shame! — the impiety into which they lure the tender minds which they instruct, when these, no longer mere students, yearn to search out Nature's craftsmanship, and many with their own hands pry into [the parts of] man and of other creatures which are handed into their power.

As Paracelsus so pithily puts it:

How will it seem to you when you will have to accept my philosophy and you will shit on your Pliny and Aristotle and piss on your Albertus [Magnus], Thomas [Aquinas], Scotus, etc., and when you will say: they lie beautifully and subtly .... How will it seem to you when I shall mess up your heaven and the [constellation of the] Dragon shall gobble up your Avicenna and your Galen?

Quotations from H.G. Koenigsberger, "Science and religion in early modern Europe." In Political Symbolism in Modern Europe: essays in honor of George L. Mosse (or via: amazon.co.uk) By Seymour. Drescher, George Lachmann Mosse, David Warren. Sabean, Allan Sharlin. Limited preview available in Google books.

Roger Pearse

I think the key term was *references*, tho. Hearsay isn't much use.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

xrey

From the OP by James Hannam:
I may not be an expert on this period, but I do recall reading in "The Agony and the Ecstasy" that Michelangelo had to bribe a gravedigger to do any dissection. Likewise, Michelangelo assumed that Leonardo da Vinci must have done the same because his works were also anatomically accurate.

This was because the Church had banned dissection (at least in Florence), except for once a year under special observation.

Now I know that "The Agony and the Ecstacy" was fiction set in the Renaissance, which is centuries later than the time in question. I also realize that "the Church" is not homogenous over all times and all of Europe.

However, am I to believe that the Church allowed (or even encouraged?) dissection at one time, but then turned around and banned it later?

Matt the Medic

Roger, I was simply outlining what I remember and could gauge from my notes regarding the history of medicine from nursing school. I'm sure if James is deeply interested in hospitals and medicine throughout humanity, he can use the starting points I created to dive deeper. I'm not a historian and I have not verified the information I presented, but I also see no reason to believe it to be inaccurate. People got sick and required treatment for thousands and thousands of years before Christian hospitals, so a simple thought game would result in the expectation of such places following the demand.