Steven Carr

*specifically* rejected notions of mortifying the flesh?

You must be referring to 1 Corinthians 9:27 'No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.'

Rick Sumner

And I bet that "realization" came as quite a shock to you. Convenient.

That you think this was less than transparent to, well, anyone, is astounding to me.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Steven Carr

I'm sure that it was all old news to you that Paul denigrates the flesh as much as many, many Gnostic texts.

jakejonesiv

The contradictory pro-flesh statements in the Pauline epistles are by the catholic redactors.

Jake Jones IV

Chris Weimer

Seems fitting to make that statement, eh?

jakejonesiv

It does, sir! They aren't in the Marcionite recension.

Clivedurdle

And what are your views of Pagels?

The Gnostic Paul (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Gamera

[QUOTE=Steven Carr;3669695] Paul was exaggerating, as I showed, a common trope of the time and a common trope used by Paul. He says he evangelized all the world for instance. A normal audience understands his point. You would seem to take it as some factual claim.

I further showed that numerous other quotes show that he was exaggerating because he says clearly that the flesh is the temple of God. But you ignored the quotes.

As to genuine gnostic quotes, I directed you to the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Judas. The demonization of the flesh is thick enough there to shake a stick at.

Nope, Paul was exaggerating. Just accept it and move on.

Yes, now you're getting it. The concept is not flesh is bad, spirit is good (that's gnoticism). The concept is LIVING by the flesh to the exclusion of the spirit is bad. Why becasue we are spiritual and carnal beings. I pointed this out in my prior post, why did you ignore it.

No, nothing like it at all. See above.

No analogy there. But keep trying.

Sure it's good in itself. Indeed, Christians don't become spirits after death but live in glorified bodies. Real bodies. Real flesh. But transformed. Whatever that means. You need to take it up with Paul

Romans 8:11 - If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.

Romans 8:23 - and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

I know, I know, ignore these verses. But first tell us what Paul means by the "redemption of our bodies" and how can anything completely bad be redeemed?

Yep, that's living according to the flesh. A bad thing according to Paul

Yes, see the quotes from my prior post, which you ignored. And the ones above. Lots of others in the NT in general.

No, it's called death. It happens.

Look no more. Go back to my point and read the quotes. Read the ones here to, and keep ignoring the fact that Paul conceives of humans as body and soul, now and in eternity, and things that dishonoring the body is a sin because the body is part of who we are.

Gamera

[QUOTE=Steven Carr;3665930]Well, you got the quote wrong, but that's OK, since it's intended as hyperbole.

But read on to Roman 8:11


If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you. 12

So by living according to the spirit, the body is taken from death (living according to the flesh) to life. Hmmm. Sounds like Paul doesn't condemn the body per se, but living according to the flesh to the exclusion of the spirit.

I think your problem is one of false categorization. You think Paul is dividing the world between physical bodies and souls. This is simply a misreading. Paul (like all Christians) believe that Christians will ultimately be transformed and have glorified immortal bodies, which are real bodies. He calls them spiritual bodies (what a great oxymoron!). The flesh and the body are not coterminous with Paul, the flesh meaning nonspiritual. The body can be spiritual, as Paul mentions over and over again, by living accoring to the spirit, and ultimately through Christ's redemption, which delivers us from the "flesh", but not from materiality.

This is an utterly nongnostic concept.

Here you go. Try hard to ignore this:

1 Cor 15:36 --You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Gamera

No, but how about this:

1 Cor 15. You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

Or this:

Romans 8:11 - If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.

Romans 8:23 - and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Or this:

Colossians 2:23 - These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting rigor of devotion and self-abasement and severity to the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh.

Philippians 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death.

1 Cor 6- Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? . . . .19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

A subtle reader might note that Paul's view of the body is quite complex and not gnostic at all.