Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CJD · 04-19-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

The gospels aim at saving Israel, when the epistles aim at saving individuals. The gospels introduced the idea that for Israel to become independant (the king and the kingdom...) many followers will be killed, and as a reward will receive eternal life... In the epistles, eternal life is granted for having "faith", "only".

Like ex-preacher, you are also flat-out wrong (for the same reason as posted previously, including this one). Consider the following from Romans 10:1 and 11:25ff.:

Quote:

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they [Israel] may be saved. … Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
"and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Quite to the contrary, the apostle is indeed concerned with the salvation of Israel. Election (salvation) in the Gospels and the epistles is both universal and particular.

CJD

ex-preacher · 04-19-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

You're just flat-out wrong about that, consider Romans 2:6ff:

Come now, CJD, surely you have read the rest of Romans, especially chapter 3. Are you seriously going to argue that Paul sets out any hope of salvation apart from faith in Christ?

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Apparently it's not believers in the Christ or his apostle that will be doing the weeping, ex.

Is this intended to be some sort of threat? Threats of eternal punishment stopped working on me a long time ago.

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What you have failed to grasp is how both the synoptics and the letters of Paul define "faith." It's not mere assensus; it is trust, loyalty and obedience.

CJD

Thank you. I am quite aware of how "faith" is used in multiple ways in the BIble.

CJD · 04-20-2005, 06:12 AM

No threats, ex. Just playing off your "read it and weep" a few posts ago.

I can only say in response that just as you are aware of how "faith" is used in a multiple of ways, so too ought you be aware of how "justification" is used in a multiple of ways (this includes the other 'catch-phrases' too — "sanctification," "glorification," "salvation," etc.).

It precisely because of Rom 3 that I quoted Rom 2. Whatever else its author meant, he didn't mean justification apart from the works of faith; he quite explicitly meant justification (and ultimately salvation) apart from the works of Torah.

Best,

CJD

sharon45 · 04-20-2005, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

Are you saying that being accursed has connotations of Hell? If so, you're wrong. The scriptures themselves make it clear that being accursed has no implications of a hell. That's a much, much later christian concept.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians 1:8-9 New International Version

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians 1:8-9 Amplified Bible

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
9As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians 1:8-9 Holman Christian Standard Bible

8 But even if we or an angel (A) from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, (B) a curse be on him! [a] 9 As we have said before, I now say again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, (C) a curse be on him!
Footnotes:
Galatians 1:8 Or you, let him be condemned, or you, let him be condemned to hell; Gk anathema
Galatians 1:9 Or received, let him be condemned, or received, let him be condemned to hell; Gk anathema

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians 1:8-9 New International Reader's Version

8But suppose even we should preach a different "good news." Suppose even an angel from heaven should preach it. I'm talking about a different one than the good news we gave you. Let anyone who does that be judged by God forever. 9I have already said it. Now I will say it again. Anyone who preaches a "good news" that is different from the one you accepted should be judged by God forever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians 1:8-9 New International Version - UK

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Then these bibles are also wrong as well, but obviously I did not write the bible, I am only a messager. I used the KJV at first since so many only want that version cited, but that makes the mistake of being dead for hell many times throughout its OT.
Although, paul is trying to save as many people from hell as possible and instead one could try to corrupt his message which could make it useless at best and lead even much more into hell at worst. What do you think he would have thought of such a person with such a purpose? What would he think god would think of such a person with that purpose? Cursed as in marked for hell.

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Originally Posted by Matthew 25:41 KJV

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

E.g., Jesus cursed a fig tree. Though the curse was very effective, that certainly didn't send it to hell.

Just because jesus is a fool in the NT doesn't really make a point on this matter.

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04-20-2005, 06:12 AM	#33
CJD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: greater Orlando area Posts: 832	No threats, ex. Just playing off your "read it and weep" a few posts ago. I can only say in response that just as you are aware of how "faith" is used in a multiple of ways, so too ought you be aware of how "justification" is used in a multiple of ways (this includes the other 'catch-phrases' too — "sanctification," "glorification," "salvation," etc.). It precisely because of Rom 3 that I quoted Rom 2. Whatever else its author meant, he didn't mean justification apart from the works of faith; he quite explicitly meant justification (and ultimately salvation) apart from the works of Torah. Best, CJD

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