stephan huller

Philo makes reference to Jews without explicitly stating they are Jewish. I can't think of a parallel example with respect to proselytes

aa5874

It is all over. Josephus has destroyed you. Non-Jews, even the Queen of Persia and her Son with other Persians did in fact emulate some of the Jewish religion in the 1st century.

This is exactly what we have been saying all along.

It was absurd and illogical to assume that only Jews could worship on the Sabbath.

stephan huller

really why is that? a proselyte is someone in the process of becoming a Jew. you don't even have the most basic grasp of fundamental concepts

aa5874

What you say does not make much sense.

It is absolutely true that it is absurd and illogical to assume that only Jews or Jewish people could worship on the Sabbath or use Hebrew Scripture.

The very Christian Bible destroys you.

Hebrew Scripture is BOLTED to the Christian Bible.

In antiquity, the Jews REJECTED the Christian religion even though the cult claimed their teachings are found in Jewish Scripture.

outhouse

So the question really is, can Proselytes be Jews, the answer has always been yes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_Proselyte

A righteous proselyte is a Gentile who has converted to Judaism

outhouse

And this

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...2391-proselyte

The more rigorous seem to have been inclined to insist upon such converts observing the entire Law, with the exception of the reservations and modifications explicitly made in their behalf.

The more lenient were ready to accord them full equality with Jews as soon as they had solemnly forsworn idolatry.

Sheshbazzar

That is an assumption on your part. It was not necessarily seen as a being 'process' by all then involved;

There were Jews and Gentiles who were very familiar these texts telling of the good things that would be experienced or inherited by the Gentiles as Gentiles;

Genesis. 17:4-5
22:18
26:4
35:11
48:19

Deut. 32:43

1Ch. 16:31

Psalms. 22:27-28
67:4
72:11
72:17
86:9
117:11
146:9

Isaiah. 2:2
2:4
11:12
56:1-8
66:18
66:23

Jer 4:2
33:9

Eze. 47:22-23

Micah 4:2-3

Zech. 2:11
8:22-23
14:16

Mal. 1:11
3:12

(I only listed the 'positive', Gentile 'friendly verses. )
And didn't provide quotations because doing so would further upset some.

Seems that for those among the Jews and the Gentiles,knowing and holding fast these verses and these promises to the Gentiles as Gentiles, or showing the presence of Gentiles in the 'world to come', there was little incentive for them to ever go through a 'process' to become a 'full' Jew, and become subject to all the of onerous obligations of The Law, as well as having to submit to the often ridculous 'interpretations' and 'decisions' the Jewish religious authorities decided to add on top of the wriiten Torah. Not a too atractive a proposition for most free, thinking free living Gentiles___
And to those 'open minded' (mainly Hellenistic) Jews that were trying to make their religion more inclusive and more attractive to these Gentiles.

Two different factions of Judaisim were at work here in opposition. The 'old guard' orthodox Hebrews trying to build up a 'fence' around the Law, enforcing and even adding ever more strictures to it, and the 'progressive' Hellenistic Jews that were working just as hard at tearing down the fences that kept gentiles out.

It was undestood (by the 'progressives' (Hellenists) that the praises and prayers of righteous Gentiles would be accepted, and their place in 'olam ha ba' was assured even as (uncircumcised) Gentiles according to these texts. So they continued to worship as uncircumcised Gentiles subject only to the seven Noachide Laws (Acts 15:19-21 & 28-29 + 1Th 4:3)
and the observance of the Sabbaths. -which however in the view of some Jews, Sabbath was even optional to thse Gentiles as not being included within the Noachide laws as being any specific requirement to gentiles, and thus viewed as being a matter of individual conscience, a view that is reflected in Romans 14:5-6.

This was upsetting to those Jews who thought that proselytes had to go through the whole 'process' and become 'full' Torah observant Jews.

Note that by this, there is no record of Judaisim having imposed much in the way of other than the Noachide restrictions on the 'yir'e Adonai' - 'ger toshav' - 'ger ha-sha'ar' 'proselyte of the gate' gentile believers/worshipers until as late the third century CE.

All quotations are from Jewish Encyclopedia.com

This the 1906 version, so there may be additional knowledge on these subjects.

stephan huller

Wouldn't the proper question be 'what is a proselyte?' προσήλυτος = sojourner, one who has arrived. From this verb:

προσέρχομαι , impf.
A. “-ηρχόμην” Th.4.121 (unless fr. προσάρχομαι): fut. “-ελεύσομαι” Plb.21.14.6 (but the Att. impf. and fut. are commonly προσῄειν, πρόσειμι, q.v.): aor. -ήλυθον, -ῆλθον: pf. -ελήλυθα:—come or go to, c. dat., A.Eu.285, S.OC1104, etc.; π. Σωκράτει visit him as teacher, X.Mem.1.2.47; τινὶ ὥσπερ ἀθλητῇ Th.l.c. (v. προσάρχομαι）; αἷς ἂν προσέλθω [γυναιξί] X.Smp.4.38: c. dat. loci, δόμοις, ἀκταῖς, A. Eu.474, E.Hel.1539: c. acc. loci, πεσσούς, δῶμα, βωμούς, Id.Med.68, 1205, Alc.171: rarely c. acc. pers., “ἐπειδὴ τοὺς πρυτάνεις προσήλθομεν” Aristomen.4: with Preps. governing acc., “π. πρὸς τὸ ἄγγος” Hdt.2.121.“β́; πρὸς Α᾿πολλώνιον” PCair.Zen.375.4 (iii B.C.): with Advbs., “π. δεῦρο” S.Aj.1171, etc.; “πέλας π. μου” E.Andr.589, cf. S.Tr.1076, etc.; ἐγγύθεν, ὄπισθεν, Pl.Plt.289d, R.327b; ὅπῃ π. χρή ib.493b: abs., approach, draw nigh, Hdt.1.86, etc.; opp. ἀπέρχομαι, ib.199; of pain, pleasure, etc., to be nigh at hand, S.Ph.788, E.Or.859.
2. in hostile sense, attack, “π. πρὸς τοὺς ἱππέας” X.Cyr.6.2.16.
3. come in, surrender, capitulate, Th.3.59.
4. come forward to speak, “π. τῷ δήμῳ” D.18.13; “πρὸς τὸν δῆμον” Aeschin.3.220; “πρὸς ὑμᾶς” D.22.69, 24.176; “πρὸς τοὺς ἱερομνήμονας” SIG419.6 (Delph., iii B.C.), cf. 613.24 (ibid., ii B.C.), al.; π. πολιτείᾳ enter political life, Plu.Cat.Mi.12; π. πρὸς τὰ κοινά come forward in public, D.18.257; π. πρὸς τὸ πολιτεύεσθαι, πρὸς τὴν πολιτείαν, Din.1.111 (v.l. εἰς), 2.15; “πρὸς τὴν πόλιν” D.58.30; “π. πρὸς ἓν πρᾶγμα ἴδιον” Id.32.32; ὑμῖν (sc. Ἀθηναίοις) Id.25.42; “ἐπὶ τοὺς συμμάχους” X.HG6.3.3.
5. appear before a tribunal, “προσελθὼν εἶπεν” BGU587.2 (ii A.D.), cf. PAmh.2.66.43 (ii A.D.); “π. τῷ δικαστηρίῳ κατ᾽ αὐτοῦ” PSI1.41.18 (iv A.D.); approach an official, “π. διὰ βιβλιδίων τῷ λαμπροτάτῳ ἡγεμόνι” BGU614.12 (iii A.D.); π. τοῖς θεοῖς in supplication, D.C.56.9.
6. π. τῇ φιλοσοφίᾳ, τοῖς νόμοις, apply oneself to . . , Philostr.VA3.18, D.S.1.95; “ἐπεὶ προσῆλθον ἀγορασμῷ ἢ καὶ ὑποθήκῃ κλήρου κατοικικοῦ” BGU650.6 (i A.D.); ἐξ οὗ χρόνου προσῆλθεν ἕκαστος τῇ μισθώσει ib.1047 iv 6 (ii A.D.); π. τῇ τούτου κληρονομίᾳ enter upon his inheritance, POxy.76.22 (ii A.D.), cf. 907.5 (iii A.D.), etc.; have recourse to, “τοῖς ἀνασκευαστικωτέροις” Sor.2.50.
7. of things, to be added, Arist.GC321b27, GA723a13.
II. come in, of revenue, Hdt.7.144, Lys.30.20, X.Mem.3.6.12.
III. have sexual intercourse, Hp.Epid.6.3.14.

The idea with respect to the Jewish religion is one who has come to dwell in the land of Israel (Lev. 17-25). This isn't fucking rocket science.

outhouse

The same way we are debating now, im sure they did then, the same exact way.


Hellenistic Jews accepting all different flavors of Proselytes as Jews

And some real Israelites orthodox minded elitist, claiming gentiles.




Why not accept, there were different definitions, and no clear line has ever been drawn on this for first century Judaism

Sheshbazzar

A 'righteous proselyte' ( 'ger tzediq') This person was a 'full' Jew, one who had underwent ritual circumcision and vowed to observe all of the Law of Moses, and to live in subjection to any additional decrees, interpretations, or rulings that the Jewish authorities might choose to add. (Deut 17:8-13)

For example; 'Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name?'....

A ger toshav could ignore such a command, a ger tzdiq was bound to keep his vows... ah the dilemma.