Johnny Skeptic

From a fundamentalist Christian perspective, which is the only perspective that I am interested in, the Old Testament does not condemn animal sacrifice. It requires it. Are you saying that the New Testament does not require the sacrifice of Jesus for the remission of sins?

Chili

No, Jesus died for the sins of his world and told us to follow him and die for the sins of our world. The concept sin is bait to catch the Original sin [nature] that makes us human. That is why they were called "fishers of men," Johnny, and no longer shepherds herding their own flock.

spamandham

Parts of the NT certainly say that Jesus' death was an atoning sacrifice. Yet, other parts do away with the sacrificial system in its entirety. These contradict each other, of course, but most Christians will argue that it's only because of Jesus sacrifice that the sacrificial system was swept away. Nothing in the NT actually says or implies that. It's an apologetic response based in the assumption that the texts have a single consistent message.

Chili

Of course it is. Jesus had 2 natures, one as Jew and one as God and they crucified the Jew to set the God free under the name of Bar-abbas -- to which even Thomas agreed with "my Lord and my God.".

spamandham

If that's true, then why is every knee to bow to the name "Jesus"? "Jesus" is the post crucifixion name, given as a result of obedience unto death.

(argument derived from Paul L. Couchoud)

According to this hymn fragment, believed by many scholars to be one of the earliest Christian references (excluding the bracketed portion that most historians agree is a later addition), the name "Jesus" was given as a result of the obediedience unto death. The name "Jesus" means loosely "God's salvation", so the name is fitting.

The obvious conclusion is that whoever died (real or mythical), was not named "Jesus" prior to death, but called that after death as a result of it! The interesting and obvious result of this straighforward observation, is that the gospels which have people calling him "jesus" while he was still alive, are anachronistic fictions invented later in the life of the church.

His name was not Bar-abbas after death, it was "Jesus". What we don't know, is what it was prior to death.

Chili

Is that protestant theology by any chance?

No, Jesus was the name of Joseph after Christ was born unto him. So he was a new creation now with two natures of which the Jew had to be crucified and later placed subservient to the Christ nature in the upper room. There was no obedience there if you look at it from his side. It was, after all, a great [divine] comedy that is available to all of us. This then, is what Jesus means (as you suggest) wherefore he told us to follow him and drink of the cup he drank.

Notice his final words in John: "It is finished" to which my reply would be: good job, well done.Just "Joseph" probably, but the fact is that Jesus must die to be raised into the upper room where Joseph is not allowed or there would be Jews in heaven; God forbid, so lets call him Joseph but without the Jewish attachements that were crucified under the name of Jesus. Jesus was buried in Joseph's back yard who just happen to have tomb there that he had hewn out with his own hands as if out of rock.

spamandham

Yes, but not exclusively so, I think.

What Joseph are you referring to, the one with the fancy coat? Can you support your idea?

Would you mind expanding on this?

Chili

The song is not Catholic, for sure, but I will agree that Catholics sing it in their isolated charismatic circles.
The Joseph to whom Mary was betrothed. Yes, Joseph the repentant sinner who went to his native town to give an account of himself there. This town is always Beth-le-hem because that is required to receive the bread of life.Jesus was the reborn Joseph and Mary was the woman that was taken from him before he became a rational being. This makes Mary non rational and therefore without sin (she never left Eden) while Joseph was banned and here now the atonement is made prior to his retun to Eden where the two will be one now under the name of John and Mary with Jesus being Lord so that reason will prevail in heaven as on earth.

No Jews (or Catholics for that matter) in heaven because there are no temples there. Freedom includes freedom from relgion and that begins in the Gosples for the man named Joseph.

spamandham

This seems to be part of a much broader analysis I'm unfamiliar with.

Chili

It is a different point view that I think is what the bible is all about.