aa5874

Why are you going around in circles?

The FICTION story of the Pauline writers is straight forward.

1. Jesus lived and preached in Galilee for about 30 years.

2. Jesus was crucified after he went to Jerusalem.

3. Jesus died, was raised from the dead and ascended through the clouds.

4. The disciples of Jesus were filled with the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost and began to preach the gospel of Christ.

5. Thousands of people were converted to believe on Jesus, at least 8000 new converts in 2 days.

5. Saul/Paul persecuted Jesus believers.

6. Saul/Paul was converted with the aid of a blinding bright light from heaven when he heard from Jesus..

7. Paul then began to preach the gospel of Christ and traveled all over the Roman Empire.

Why are you going AROUND IN CIRCLES trying to give people the impression that you have evidence that the Pauline writers wrote before the Jesus story was fully developed when the Pauline writers did not even make such a claim?

At least 8000 people knew about the gospel of Christ before Saul/Paul was converted.

Did not the Pauline writers themselves claim that they persecuted the Faith that they NOW preach? See Galatians 1.23

The Faith was BEFORE the Pauline writers.

Why are you going AROUND in Circles?

Did NOT the Pauline writers claim that there were people "in Christ" BEFORE them? See Romans 16.7

People preached the gospel of Christ before the Pauline writers.

Why are you going AROUND in circles?

Did NOT the Pauline writers CONFIRM or corroborate Acts of the Apostles and claim that they were in a basket in Damascus by the wall? See 2 Cor. 11.31-32 and Acts 9.25

Did NOT the Pauline writers claim that they RECEIVED information from the Lord Jesus in heaven that he was BETRAYED in the night after he had supped? See 1 Cor.11.23.

ALL the EVIDENCE presented by the Pauline writings and apologetic sources show that the Jesus story was Fundamentally DEVELOPED before the Pauline writers started to preach his gospel of uncircumcision.

But you are giving people the impression that YOU have EVIDENCE that the Jesus story was NOT fundamentally developed by the time of the Pauline writers when you have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever.

The Pauline writers got their gospel from the resurrected dead. See Galatians 1.1

It was ALREADY known that Jesus was born of a woman, betrayed in the night after he had supped, crucified, died, RAISED from the dead, ascended to heaven and was expected to return a SECOND time by the Pauline writers.

You appear to just want to go around in circles.

The Jesus story was developed AFTER the Fall of the Temple. The Pauline writers are after the Jesus story was developed or after the Fall of the Temple.

The Pauline writers themselves did NOT claim they were first to preach the gospel of Christ.

"Paul's close companion Luke did NOT claim "Paul" was first to preach the gospel of Christ.

Apologetic sources did NOT claim "Paul" was first to preach the gospel of Christ.

Please stop going around in circles. There is no evidence for your CIRCLES.

The EVIDENCE from antiquity is straight forward that the Pauline writers were AFTER the Jesus story was fundamentally developed.

You dare not change a single word in the NT Canon. It is CAST in Stone.

maryhelena

aa5874 - what can I say? Once again your response indicates that you have not considered what I have written - so, for now - cheers :wave:

aa5874

But my response was after I had taken what you wrote into consideration.

That is precisely why I said that your are going in circles.

Did you not write the following?

By making such a claim you are giving the ERRONEOUS impression that you have EVIDENCE from antiquity that the Pauline writers were the first to preach the gospel of Christ when you have NONE.

Not even the Pauline writers made such a claim.

maryhelena

Someone came up with the Jesus crucified, dying and rising god storyline - any ideas who that might be?

aa5874

Again, you give the erroneous impression that you have EVIDENCE that the author of gMark used the Pauline writings when you have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever.

Why are you promoting propaganda?

We are ALL SURE that the Pauline writers did NOT write about:

1. John the Baptist.

2. The temptation of Jesus.

3. The healing of incurable diseases by Jesus.

4. Jesus walking on the sea.

5. The transfiguration of Jesus.

6. The place where Jesus lived.

7. The arrest and trial of Jesus.

8. The events at the crucifixion.

9. The events at the visit to the tomb.

And we are ALSO SURE the author of gMark did not write that.

1. Jesus was born of a woman.

2. Over 500 people saw Jesus after he was RAISED from the dead.

So, the Markan Jesus story was virtually fabricated without any input from the Pauline writings. Even the ritual of the Eucharist in the Pauline writings contain words ONLY found in gLuke.

We are SURE an apologetic source claimed Paul was aware of gLuke.

From the EVIDENCE we are SURE gMark has no Pauline influence at all.

We are SURE gMark used Hebrew Scripture for his Jesus story line.

Not even the Hebrew Scripture used in the Pauline writings are found in gMark.

For example

1. The passage in gMark from Hebrew Scripture about John the Baptist as a messenger can be found in Malachi 3.1.

2. The words from the cloud after baptism can be found in Isaiah 42.1.

3. The forty days fasting at the temptation can be found in Exodus 34.28.

4. The healing of infirmities can be found in Isaiah 53.

5. The idea of the Eucharist can be found in Exodus 24.5

6. The idea of betrayal can be found in Psalms 41.9

7. The idea of the trial and crucifixion can be found in Psalms 22

8. The resurrection on the third day from the book of Jonah.

It is COMPLETELY ERRONEOUS that the author of gMark used the Pauline writings. There is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to support such a view.


You are NOT SURE that gMark used the Pauline writings at all.

Rich Oliver

Am I misunderstanding your rhetoric here? I presume you are aware that none of the epistle writers talk about a return or a second appearance on Earth.

aa5874

You are sure that the author of gMark used the Pauline story/vision but I am sure that you have NO extant evidence from antiquity for such certainty.

I am sure as you are that the extant Pauline writings did not mention that :

1. Jesus was from Nazareth.

2. Jesus was called Son of Man.

3. John the Baptist was the fore-runner to Jesus.

4. Jesus was tempted by the Devil for forty days.

5. Jesus lived in Galilee.

6. Jesus was a carpenter.

7. Jesus cured many, many incurable diseases.

8. Jesus walked on the sea.

9. Jesus was transfigured and that Moses and Elijah appeared with him.

10. At the arrest and trial where the disciples ran away and Peter denied ever knowing Jesus three times.

11. Two other persons were crucified with Jesus.

12. The visitors ran away form the tomb trembling with fear when the body of Jesus was missing.

By whatever means the author of gMark got his story of Jesus it is almost SURE that he did not get from the Pauline vision/story.

It must be obvious that if "Paul's". claim is true that he actually heard from Jesus who told him about his life on earth that the author of gMark may have ALSO heard from the very Jesus who talked to "PAUL"

After all, John of Revelation got his VISIONS and REVELATIONS from an entity called Jesus Christ, the bright and morning star, through his angel.

Re 22:16 - Who needs "Paul" when in the NT Canon Jesus talked to other people and gave them VISIONS and REVELATIONS.

I am SURE that in the NT Canon that it is claimed Jesus did not REVEAL things to the Pauline writers alone.

You are NOT really sure that the author of gMark used the Pauline vision/story but you give the ERRONEOUS impression that you are.

bacht

Well, they all talk about the end being near, and the Parousia seems to mean Christ's first manifestation in this world

aa5874

The Pauline writers spoke about the SECOND coming of Jesus from heaven.
1` Thessalonians 4.15-17 So not only did they mention the SECOND coming but they also gave some details of the logistics. The dead will rise first and then the living will float or do something to meet Jesus in the clouds after some trumpet music from God or some heavenly musician.