Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David B · 01-01-2010, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Abe, I've posted many times in multiple fora that to my mind the best evidence there is for Jesus being a historical figure rather than a myth is that so many of his reported words fit the archetypal cult leader model so well.

When people like David Koresh, Charles Manson and Wayne Bent, among others, claim to be Christ like figures, I don't think that they are far off the mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Ou...ousness_Church

http://strongcity.info/

I know about this because a year or so ago, on another board, I (among others) had a lot of interaction with members and ex members of the Strong City cult.

David B

Wonderful, I knew that I wasn't the only mind on this issue. I think it is very often dismissed because of confusion and misapplication of the word, "cult." But sociologists have a detailed understanding of the cult model, and it seems to be a compelling fit to the religion of the New Testament. I figure those with personal involvement in cults are mostly like to agree with the theory.

Yeah. I know about the Strong City stuff at second hand. Mahesh Yogi, though, I know of from closer quarters, and he fits the bill, too. From threads I have been, and one or two I am currently involved in here, but again at second hand, L Ron Hubbard seems to be another Christ like figure.

David B

Toto · 01-01-2010, 04:20 PM

I find that the Jesus portrayed in the gospels is quite unlike modern cult leaders in one important aspect: he doesn't seem to have slept with any of his disciples, he didn't have 7 wives, and sex was not much of an issue for him or his followers. There don't seem to have been any young women throwing themselves at him, wanting to have his babies. This is unlike any cult that I can think of offhand.

Do you think that Jesus was different, or were the details thoroughly removed?

David B · 01-01-2010, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I find that the Jesus portrayed in the gospels is quite unlike modern cult leaders in one important aspect: he doesn't seem to have slept with any of his disciples, he didn't have 7 wives, and sex was not much of an issue for him or his followers. There don't seem to have been any young women throwing themselves at him, wanting to have his babies. This is unlike any cult that I can think of offhand.

Do you think that Jesus was different, or were the details thoroughly removed?

Hmm. Maharishi was always portrayed as celibate, though there are rumours (with some credibility) that he slipped on a couple of occasions.

There was a hint in the Gospel of mary Magdeline that he had something of a sexual relationship with her, was there not? Kissing often on the mouth, or something like that.

And I find the words 'hidden Mark' coming to mind - wasn't there something about him lying with a naked man?

ETA or was it 'secret Mark?' Something like that, anyway. It's late here, and work early tomorrow after a very late night last night. Too late to hunt for refs.

David B

aa5874 · 01-01-2010, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

Abe, I've posted many times in multiple fora that to my mind the best evidence there is for Jesus being a historical figure rather than a myth is that so many of his reported words fit the archetypal cult leader model so well.

When people like David Koresh, Charles Manson and Wayne Bent, among others, claim to be Christ like figures, I don't think that they are far off the mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Ou...ousness_Church

http://strongcity.info/

I know about this because a year or so ago, on another board, I (among others) had a lot of interaction with members and ex members of the Strong City cult.

David B

There is a massive difference between claiming to be Christ today and a Jew claiming to the Son of God in Jerusalen in the 1st century.

Blasphemy was punishable by death in Jerusalem.

The Jews expected a ruler called the Messiah who would deliver the Jews from their enemies so just saying you are Christ or turning water into wine was absolutely meaningless until you actively began to at least encourage Jews to kill or destroy the Romans and not to pay their taxes.

Jesus of the NT, based on the Gospels, was actively preaching against the accepted traditional beliefs about the Jewish Messiah. He did not say a single thing that was anti-Roman and encouraged the Jews to pay taxes and dues to the Romans.

If Jesus did live and was a Jew, circumcised on the eight day, he would have been the least likely candidate to have been called a Messiah. It would have virtually impossible or extemely unlikely that a Jew would have been deified and asked to forgive the sins of Jews and abandon the Laws of Moses including circumcision while the Temple was still standig.

It is more likely that Jesus and his disciples would have been executed without trial and just found dead in the streets of Judea.

This is Josephus on the Scicari in Wars of the Jews 2.13.3

Quote:

3. ....there sprang up another sort of robbers in Jerusalem, which were called Sicarii, who slew men in the day time, and in the midst of the city;

this they did chiefly at the festivals, when they mingled themselves among the multitude, and concealed daggers under their garments, with which they stabbed those that were their enemies;

and when any fell down dead, the murderers became a part of those that had indignation against them; by which means they appeared persons of such reputation, that they could by no means be discovered.

The first man who was slain by them was Jonathan the high priest, after whose death many were slain every day....

If Jesus did exist and claimed he was a Son of God or his disciples claimed he was the Son of God and asked to forgive the sins of the Jews and abandon the Laws of Moses including circumcision, it is likely that they may have ended up like Jonathan, the high priest, found dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

ApostateAbe · 01-01-2010, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I find that the Jesus portrayed in the gospels is quite unlike modern cult leaders in one important aspect: he doesn't seem to have slept with any of his disciples, he didn't have 7 wives, and sex was not much of an issue for him or his followers. There don't seem to have been any young women throwing themselves at him, wanting to have his babies. This is unlike any cult that I can think of offhand.

Do you think that Jesus was different, or were the details thoroughly removed?

I do think it is a weakness in the theory, because sexual drama really is a common thing among cult leaders, but we don't see any signs of that in the New Testament. Later apocryphal writings do at least hint of Jesus getting romantically involved with Mary Magdalene, but that is too much of a maybe-maybe-not. But it is a problem that could be solved as you suspect. Jesus preached very strongly against adultery, which meant that Christians had a strong interest in keeping the myth of Jesus clean from sexual immorality. It is not likely to me that Jesus kept celibate, though not completely out of the question. Jesus was popular enough to have a few young women in any town, but he would try to keep it secret. If any of his followers caught wind of it, they would simply keep their mouths shut about it.

Toto · 01-01-2010, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

...
Hmm. Maharishi was always portrayed as celibate, though there are rumours (with some credibility) that he slipped on a couple of occasions.

There was a hint in the Gospel of mary Magdeline that he had something of a sexual relationship with her, was there not? Kissing often on the mouth, or something like that.

That was one of the gnostic gospels. There is no other hint of a special relationship, but the modern imagination keeps trying to find one.

Quote:

And I find the words 'hidden Mark' coming to mind - wasn't there something about him lying with a naked man?

ETA or was it 'secret Mark?' ...

Secret Mark is generally regarded as a forgery done by Morton Smith.

wavy_wonder1 · 01-02-2010, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Secret Mark is generally regarded as a forgery done by Morton Smith.

Jury's still out on it though.

Finis,
ELB

spamandham · 01-02-2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Many of us believe that Jesus was only a myth or a story. We have many examples in history and the present day of actual human apocalyptic cult leaders, but not so many examples of merely mythical apocalyptic cult leaders. For people who advance the position of a mythical Jesus, it is essential that they explain and provide evidence for the cultic and apocalyptic elements of the gospels. Are there comparable myths of apocalyptic cult leaders? And do they share the items on the checklist of cult characteristics?

Suppose you are right and early Christianity had a cult leader. Why do you propose that leader was Jesus instead of Paul, or someone else?

Elijah · 01-03-2010, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

I advocate this theory because it provides the most fitting explanation of early Christianity. It explains Jesus and the apostles in a way that a wise sage Jesus, social reformer Jesus, a cynic Jesus, a revolutionary Jesus or a mythical Jesus do not. Of course, an advocate of any sort of Jesus can find verses that fit his or her model, but such an advocate probably can not easily explain the passages that are normally left out of the various proofs. The cult leader Jesus explains them all.

Before looking at the list I wanted to start off with I don’t know how the cult leader explains much about what is going on during the birth of Christianity. I’m just not sure what you think that explains because I don’t think being a cult leader is going to be necessarily exclusive from being a sage, messiah or social reformer. So showing that he has traits of a cult leader doesn’t mean he wasn’t one of those as well and that those aspects aren’t necessary to understanding Christianity. What the cult leader aspect would do for understanding the start of Christianity I’m unsure of but I don’t think it would be accurate to understand Jesus in a either-or way, between cult leader and social reformer.

Also I think the two main characteristics of a clear group and clear leadership are missing from the story to classify him as a cult leader when he is trying from my perspective to do an anti-leader performance.

Quote:

✔ The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

Matthew 16:16, Mark 10:21, 1 Thessalonians 4:2, Matthew 28:28, John 14:6. This item is listed first because it is the most defining element of a cult. If a group has this item, it is likely to be a cult. If a group does not have this item, it is likely to not be a cult.

Matt 16:16 is Peter just saying Jesus is the messiah. There isn’t anything overzealous or unquestioning about the scene. It’s just trying to illustrate how the faith in him as the messiah started.

Mark 10:21, the guy didn’t even take his advice so that doesn’t support the unquestioning commitment.

Thessa is post Jesus so not relevant to the discussion of if Jesus was a cult leader.

Guessing Matthew 28:28 was a mistype.

John 14:6: what does the disciple do when Jesus says that he is the way? He questions him and asks for a sign? Again going against the unquestioning premise.

Rebuttal: As aa5874 pointed out Jesus is questioned and denied and betrayed by his followers without Jesus trying to prevent or discourage it.

Quote:

✔ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

Matthew 16:21-23, Matthew 14:31, Luke 12:28, Mark 11:23. Jesus repeated reprimands those of little faith.

The context of Matt 16:21 is that Jesus is saying that he is going to go get himself killed and Peter is trying to talk him out of it and Jesus responds saying that Peter is getting in the way of doing his business. Jesus isn’t imposing any ideology here for there to be dissent about other than him staying alive.

Matt 14:31 does say that there is a punishment for doubt if you wish to believe in super powers like walking on water. Not really what we are talking about here though.

Luke 12:28 is about having faith that god/nature can take care of you and worrying about it won’t help anything. Not about dissent or doubt in regards to a cult leader or cult.

Mark 11:23 is again if you believed in super powers, like telekinesis, then still wouldn’t be relevant to the discussion.

Rebuttal: Again Jesus was questioned and doubted constantly in the story and no one acted like that was a big deal.

Quote:

✔ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

1 Corinthians 12:10, Mark 16:17. Theses are passages pertaining to speaking in tongues.

Corinthians doesn’t tell us if Jesus was a cult leader, we are just talking about Jesus and the people around him during his life.

Mark 16:17 is again pertaining to faith leading to super powers. Nothing real mind altering going on there except they are seeing a dead guy. But it isn’t Jesus talking unless you believe that he came back from the dead so not relevant to him being a cult leader either way.

Rebuttal: Almost all religious practice has some form of mind altering practices but there doesn’t seem to be anything excessive seen in the story unless you think they were fasting too much.

Quote:

✔ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

Mark 6:7-9, 2 Corinthians 6:14.

Mark 6:7Is him not controlling a group but trying to create a social change by encouraging the example of humility. Renounce your material wealth as a solution to the people’s enslavement has been around and popular for a bit.

2 corinth not relevant.

Rebuttal: I think the problem is dividing the line between dictating and advising. All religious leaders are going to offer up advice on how to live; hardly anyone is just going to say “do and believe whatever you want”.

Quote:

✔ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

Luke 13:22-30, Matthew 16:16.

The group would consider itself to be special and on a mission to save the world with someone “some” think is the messiah. He isn’t exalted but humbles himself and the group isn’t elitist but also takes the roles of humility and servitude.

Luke 13:22 is about Jesus talking about the difficulty in being a part of the resurrection. It doesn’t seem to be about the eliteness of a group or him being the messiah.

Matt 16:16 is about Peter saying Jesus was the messiah which is part of the story but no elitism or exaltation of the group.

Rebuttal: No rebuttal since it’s true in regards to them believing they were on a mission to save humanity and had a messiah figure.

Quote:

✔ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

Matthew 18:7, Luke 6:22, John 7:7. Matthew 18:7 says, “Woe to the world because of {its} stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!”

Matt 18:7 which you quoted doesn’t seem to have a us vs. them mentality just that who is responsible for the problems in our society is going to be punished.

Luke 6:22 is about his praise of those who would be persecuted for the purpose of spreading the message. Nothing about us vs them.

John 7:7 isn’t us vs them, it’s the world having a problem with Jesus because he testifies against it. The world cannot hate its brothers as he said so no divide there.

Rebuttal: The group is trying to spread a message to the rest of their society to try and save them. It’s not us vs. them at all, it’s us trying to save them.

Quote:

✔ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

Matthew 21:23-27. Jesus is not accountable to the chiefs of his own religion, and he refuses to say who he is accountable to.

He’s not saying he isn’t accountable to the chiefs he’s just not going to be tricked into blasphemy so they are justified in getting rid of him.

Rebuttal: The point of the story is his submission to the authority.

Quote:

✔ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

Matthew 19:29, Matthew 8:21-22, Matthew 26:16. Jesus advocated abandoning one’s children in order to follow after him, for the reward of eternal life.

Matt 19:29,I wouldn’t consider that abandonment of children any more than a man goes and fights in what he considers a just war to protect his family.

Matt 8:2. Leave the dead to bury their own is in the same vain as above, nothing unethical about worrying about saving the living instead of dealing with the dead.

Matt 26:16??? Because what Judas is doing is unethical?

Rebuttal: I don’t consider anything about his example to be unethical.

Quote:

✔ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

I can not find any passage appropriate for this item.

Woot woot!

Rebuttal: :He was about forgiveness not making people feel shame or guilt.

Quote:

✔ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

Luke 9:61-62. “Another also said, ‘I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.’ But Jesus said to him, ‘No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.’”

This isn’t about cutting ties; this is about faith in the message. Yes you could die before you return but again it’s just like going to what you consider a just war.

Rebuttal: None. If you accept this message then it should probably radically alter your personal goals. But the cutting of ties isn’t required it just may be an expected part of following his way.

Quote:

✔ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

Matthew 28:19. This is the passage of the “Great Commission.”

28:19 is after Jesus is dead so not relevant to if he was a cult leader.

Rebuttal: there is no formal membership to be preoccupied with but there is spreading the message of the kingdom of god. You could say that accepting that message makes you part of the group but not in the way that we are talking about that can be lead by someone. Everyone is still part of the same Jewish group, there is no division into two groups during Jesus’ life.

Quote:

✔ The group is preoccupied with making money.

Luke 21:1-4. Jesus often advocated giving to the poor, but he strongly encouraged the poor to give what little they had to him.

As has been pointed out already the money wasn’t going to Jesus.

Rebuttal: Jesus when dealing with people of money never makes any attempt at profiting or charging for his healing.

Quote:

✔ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

Luke 9:61-62. If followers left their families and livelihoods, then all of their time would be spent devoted to the group.

This isn’t a request for time with a group this is about dedication to going out and proclaiming the kingdom of god. You can go with whoever you want or by yourself in that regards.

Rebuttal: Jesus never discusses a group or how much time one should spend with it.

Quote:

✔ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

2 Corinthians 6:14. “Do not be bound together with unbelievers, for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?”

Again not about Jesus’ leadership.

Rebuttal: If you consider the group Jews then yes but if you considering the group his followers then no he did the opposite in sending them out to spread the message not isolate themselves.

Quote:

✔ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

Hebrews 6:4-6. This is the passage that strongly condemns apostates.

Again not about Jesus’leadership style.

Rebuttal: The opposite is true in that fear of reprisals is warned for following him.

Quote:

Not included in the original checklist is apocalypticism:

✔ The members of the group believe that an enormous catastrophe will soon take place, and they believe it is the responsibility of the group to warn the world about it.

This is not true for all cults, but it is a characteristic that is almost exclusive to cults. It is seen especially in the most powerful and dangerous cults, such as the Lyndon LaRouche movement, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate, People's Temple (Jim Jones), and Solar Temple. And it is very easily seen in early Christianity. Jesus says in Mark 9:1, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.” Jesus says in Mark 13:30, “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” And he was referring to “days of distress unequaled from the beginning” in addition to many other apocalyptic events. Jesus taught that only those who believe will be saved from this doomsday (Mark 16:16).

I don’t think this trait is exclusive to cults. I think it’s fairly common to believe in some kind of world changing disaster in the future.

Quote:

Many of us believe that Jesus was only a myth or a story. We have many examples in history and the present day of actual human apocalyptic cult leaders, but not so many examples of merely mythical apocalyptic cult leaders. For people who advance the position of a mythical Jesus, it is essential that they explain and provide evidence for the cultic and apocalyptic elements of the gospels. Are there comparable myths of apocalyptic cult leaders? And do they share the items on the checklist of cult characteristics?

Of the 13 items that would be characteristics of a cult and not a broad range of religions, 2 fit from what I can tell. The messiah special mission one and the radically changes lifestyle. Of the 11 that remain, 6 of them are almost describing opposite characteristics of what style of leadership Jesus is portraying. Again I don’t see the cult leader deal going on in the story I see the opposite of someone trying to set an example of an anti-leader who serves the people instead of them serving him. Matt 20:28

I don’t think cult leader or apocalyptic preacher are very useful in describing or understanding what Jesus is trying to do. Cult leader description gets in the way of the anti leader aspect and apocalyptic preacher doesn’t address the issue he believes is going to cause the apocalypse or what he believes the solution is.

The messiah angle and the social reform have to be considered in order to get off of square one in understanding the Jesus story IMO. Apocalyptic preacher and even cult leader may not necessarily be wrong they just don’t help in understanding what is going on in the Jesus story.

ApostateAbe · 01-03-2010, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Many of us believe that Jesus was only a myth or a story. We have many examples in history and the present day of actual human apocalyptic cult leaders, but not so many examples of merely mythical apocalyptic cult leaders. For people who advance the position of a mythical Jesus, it is essential that they explain and provide evidence for the cultic and apocalyptic elements of the gospels. Are there comparable myths of apocalyptic cult leaders? And do they share the items on the checklist of cult characteristics?

Suppose you are right and early Christianity had a cult leader. Why do you propose that leader was Jesus instead of Paul, or someone else?

For me, it takes the least amount of unlikely stretching to surmise that Jesus was the initial founder. You just don't have a lot of purely mythical apocalyptic cult leaders, but you have plenty of human apocalyptic cult leaders who evolved into myths.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

01-01-2010, 04:20 PM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I find that the Jesus portrayed in the gospels is quite unlike modern cult leaders in one important aspect: he doesn't seem to have slept with any of his disciples, he didn't have 7 wives, and sex was not much of an issue for him or his followers. There don't seem to have been any young women throwing themselves at him, wanting to have his babies. This is unlike any cult that I can think of offhand. Do you think that Jesus was different, or were the details thoroughly removed?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.