Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 11-07-2011, 01:19 PM

Yes. Superficial reading leads to superficial understanding (and a overweening desire to show off personal discoveries).

Sheshbazzar · 11-07-2011, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

I think that behind the figure of Gospel Jesus, there may lie a Joshua Revidicus expectation. Robert A. Kraft gathered some relevant information on this back in 1961/62, Was There a "Messiah-Joshua" Tradition at The Turn of the Era?

I would add to that, Joshua/Jesus ascended Mt. Sinai with Moses (Exodus 24:13) and descended Mt Siani with Moses (Exodus 32:16-18). In the first century CE Philo employed a midrashic tradition which interpreted Moses' ascent to Siani as a heavenly ascent where he was deified. (De Somnii 1.36, De Posteritute Caini 28.31, De Confusione Linguarum 30-32, Quaestones et Solutioners in Exodum 2.29)

Since Joshua alone was said to have accompanied him (Exodus 24:13-14 ), legend grew that Joshua shared in that deification, and the ascent and descent to heaven/Sinai. This presumed legend lies behind Ephesians 4:8-10.

The Targum on the Psalms 68:18 reads: 'Thou ascendedst up to the firmament, O prophet Moses, thou tookest captives captive, thou didst teach the words of the Law, thou gavest them as gifts to the children of men'.

In the Assumption of Moses, the dying Moses calls Jesus/Joshua to him and gives him the task of finishing his work, christening his books (Jesus Christ?), leading to the ushering in of "the consummation of the end of the days." Assumption of Moses, 1.12-14.

Jake Jones IV

Another reflection upon the unique relationship of Joshua to YHWH is found in Exd 33:11

Quote:

And YHWH spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaks unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp:
but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the Tabernacle.

eta. Oh crap. I now see I was a 'Johnny come lately' with this :redface: But at least I can take solace in the fact that I'm not the only one to note it.

.

RareBird · 11-07-2011, 03:27 PM

It's true. Yeshua is closer to Joshua than Jesus. The Y and J have the same pronunciation in several languages. But somewhere along the line someone thought Joshua Fucking Christ! just didn't sound right. So they invented Jesus. And the rest, as they say, is history.

Skyler · 11-07-2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

I think that behind the figure of Gospel Jesus, there may lie a Joshua Revidicus expectation. Robert A. Kraft gathered some relevant information on this back in 1961/62, Was There a "Messiah-Joshua" Tradition at The Turn of the Era?

I would add to that, Joshua/Jesus ascended Mt. Sinai with Moses (Exodus 24:13) and descended Mt Siani with Moses (Exodus 32:16-18). In the first century CE Philo employed a midrashic tradition which interpreted Moses' ascent to Siani as a heavenly ascent where he was deified. (De Somnii 1.36, De Posteritute Caini 28.31, De Confusione Linguarum 30-32, Quaestones et Solutioners in Exodum 2.29)

Since Joshua alone was said to have accompanied him (Exodus 24:13-14 ), legend grew that Joshua shared in that deification, and the ascent and descent to heaven/Sinai. This presumed legend lies behind Ephesians 4:8-10.

The Targum on the Psalms 68:18 reads: 'Thou ascendedst up to the firmament, O prophet Moses, thou tookest captives captive, thou didst teach the words of the Law, thou gavest them as gifts to the children of men'.

In the Assumption of Moses, the dying Moses calls Jesus/Joshua to him and gives him the task of finishing his work, christening his books (Jesus Christ?), leading to the ushering in of "the consummation of the end of the days." Assumption of Moses, 1.12-14.

Jake Jones IV

Another reflection upon the unique relationship of Joshua to YHWH is found in Exd 33:11

Quote:

And YHWH spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaks unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp:
but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the Tabernacle.

eta. Oh crap. I now see I was a 'Johnny come lately' with this :redface: But at least I can take solace in the fact that I'm not the only one to note it.

.

It is a good point and worth repeating. Thanks.

stephan huller · 11-07-2011, 06:07 PM

Shesh,

I'll see your Ex 22:11 and raise you a Num 27:21. Joshua was clearly inferior because Moses had unrestricted access; joshua had to go through the high priest

There's no getting around it. Moses was the man. Joshua second banana

Sheshbazzar · 11-07-2011, 08:14 PM

Moses was top man while he lived, but YHWH chose to have him die in the wilderness, and to NOT allow him to 'deliver' or to lead the children of Israel in The Promised Land.
That favor was accorded to 'Joshua' the anointed Deliverer, alone, out of all mankind.
Moses could not enter The Promised Land nor Deliver. Joshua could and did enter that Promised Land and Delivered the children of Israel in accord with The Promises.

More 'Joshua's' came. It was not of the name 'Moses' that it was spoken of by YHWH, saying; 'Behold! the man whose Name is The BRANCH'.

judge · 11-07-2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

but AFAIK there is no record of Jesus being called Yeshua before the 20th century.

Aramaic speaking christians such as the COE, have always referred to Jesus as Eshoo or Yeshua or something similar, depending on dialect.
Its merely that western english speaking people have grown up under the cultural influence of the Roman Catholic and protestant churces so, as a result they use a greek form of the name.
If we move away from America and Europe to say, parts of Turkey or Iraq we find a very ancient practice of using other semitic forms of the hebrew Joshua, (Aramaic forms) to refer to the person we call Jesus.

stephan huller · 11-07-2011, 11:24 PM

All testimonies point to Jesus being called Yeshu in Aramaic - the diminutive.

stephan huller · 11-07-2011, 11:27 PM

And Shesh it's a pointless argument. For according to the Samaritans it was Moses who ushered in the era of favor. Joshua already represents a decline over the righteousness of Moses. The Samaritans say it over and over again in their writings:

there will never be another prophet like him (cf. Deut 34:10)

The God of the Jews never knew Joshua face to face, nor counted him as his friend. Joshua was not the equal of Moses. This is the standard theological interpretation of ALL normative traditions save for wacky evangelical ones.

jakejonesiv · 11-08-2011, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Shesh,

I'll see your Ex 22:11 and raise you a Num 27:21. Joshua was clearly inferior because Moses had unrestricted access; joshua had to go through the high priest

There's no getting around it. Moses was the man. Joshua second banana

Who cares?

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11-07-2011, 01:19 PM	#21
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes. Superficial reading leads to superficial understanding (and a overweening desire to show off personal discoveries).

11-07-2011, 03:27 PM	#23
RareBird Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 4,607	It's true. Yeshua is closer to Joshua than Jesus. The Y and J have the same pronunciation in several languages. But somewhere along the line someone thought Joshua Fucking Christ! just didn't sound right. So they invented Jesus. And the rest, as they say, is history.

11-07-2011, 06:07 PM	#25
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Shesh, I'll see your Ex 22:11 and raise you a Num 27:21. Joshua was clearly inferior because Moses had unrestricted access; joshua had to go through the high priest There's no getting around it. Moses was the man. Joshua second banana

11-07-2011, 08:14 PM	#26
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Moses was top man while he lived, but YHWH chose to have him die in the wilderness, and to NOT allow him to 'deliver' or to lead the children of Israel in The Promised Land. That favor was accorded to 'Joshua' the anointed Deliverer, alone, out of all mankind. Moses could not enter The Promised Land nor Deliver. Joshua could and did enter that Promised Land and Delivered the children of Israel in accord with The Promises. More 'Joshua's' came. It was not of the name 'Moses' that it was spoken of by YHWH, saying; 'Behold! the man whose Name is The BRANCH'.

11-07-2011, 11:24 PM	#28
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	All testimonies point to Jesus being called Yeshu in Aramaic - the diminutive.

11-07-2011, 11:27 PM	#29
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	And Shesh it's a pointless argument. For according to the Samaritans it was Moses who ushered in the era of favor. Joshua already represents a decline over the righteousness of Moses. The Samaritans say it over and over again in their writings: there will never be another prophet like him (cf. Deut 34:10) The God of the Jews never knew Joshua face to face, nor counted him as his friend. Joshua was not the equal of Moses. This is the standard theological interpretation of ALL normative traditions save for wacky evangelical ones.

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