Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tangent · 12-05-2004, 05:52 AM

The whole letter is worded to be very provocative and draw parallels between bible believers and "baby murderers". If you were honestly interested in receiving a well thought out reply, I think you would have chosen a less offensive way to present it. There is a lot of veiled arrogance and such in the letter. It would have prob been better to pull a socratic method type thing on him, feigning marginal understanding and asking like "how could god kill babies?" then when he responded and was involved you could have him bring about your conclusions.

If you were just looking to call him someone who supports baby/fetus murder tho, you did a pretty good job. It's just rather evident that you already have your mind made up and not actually interested in much more than trolling.

Namaste

dannyh44 · 12-05-2004, 06:49 AM

That's a good point. I still have a lot of anger surrounding my experiences in the church, and I think that comes through some in the letter. I just get very frustrated when believers are dishonest with me on issues.

If a person can show me a logical, sound reason to believe a certain thing, then I will honetstly consider it and admit If I was wrong. ON the other hand, when I point out why a Christian's belielf is wrong and support it with sound reason and even Biblical evidence, they never admit their reasoning was flawed - ever!
What happened to honesty?

Anyway, thanks for the response.

spin · 12-05-2004, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godless Wonder

If you didn't judge God, then you would have no opinion about his goodness or badness.

It doesn't make senes to use terms like goodness and badness regarding the xian god. Good and bad relate to the will of this god. If you do what is perceived as what is the will of God then you are doing good, contrary you do bad. God, by definition as an entity, does his will by nature, no matter what that will is, havig no independent scale with which to measure it by. He cannot not do his will, so he has no choice and terms like good and bad are meaningless when applied to him. It is only when you have a false conception that good and bad can be independent from this god that you can use those terms to evaluate his actions.

spin

dannyh44 · 12-05-2004, 09:27 AM

I think what I hear you proposing is that we as humans can never really know for sure what is a moral act and what isn't. I was always taught in the church that God has written his law upon the hearts of all men, so that all are acountable, meaning all men have an innate moral conscience that tells them when they are sinning.

If we cannot trust our personal moral conscience that God has given us, then there's no way to judge morals. All we can do is look back and say "Well, we shouldn't kill pregnant women and babies, unless God tells us to" or "We shouldn't steal, unless God tells us to." Is this making sense?

Thanks

spin · 12-05-2004, 10:25 AM

I was basically saying that you cannot predicate God with terms such as "good" or "evil" because there is nothing to measure them by. The notion of God is amoral.

spin

dannyh44 · 12-05-2004, 11:35 AM

Yes, it seems one would have to take that view, that God is amoral, to justify actions in the Bible. But then, the Bible itself repeated refers to God as Good and Just, which ascribes a moralness to God.

spin · 12-05-2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyh44

Yes, it seems one would have to take that view, that God is amoral, to justify actions in the Bible. But then, the Bible itself repeated refers to God as Good and Just, which ascribes a moralness to God.

Can the standard which measures good be in itself good? How do you measure that goodness? Short answer: you can't. This is a simple philosophical problem.

spin

dannyh44 · 12-05-2004, 02:47 PM

I see what you're saying. But if anything God wills is automatically good, then there can be no universal, absolute moral constants. Right?

Zygote · 12-05-2004, 09:29 PM

I'm not clear on what your goal is. If you want to engage the pastor in a debate about the inerrancy of the bible, you've made a good start.

If you want to convince the pastor that the entire premise of his church is flawed and that your reasons for steering clear of his church are valid, I predict you won't get very far.

If you're trying to convince him that you don't want to join his church, a simple "No, thank you." is sufficient. Repeat as often as necessary.

dannyh44 · 12-06-2004, 03:11 PM

Zygote,
I hear what you're saying. Here's the truth: I see this guy from time to time in social settings and I want him to know that the reason I don't attend his church is not because I'm "turning away from God" or "hiding from the truth." I want him to know I've thought a lot about this and its not as simple as he presents to his flock.

But, I haven't heard anything in two weeks and I doubt I will get a response.

Thanks

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12-05-2004, 05:52 AM	#11
Tangent Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NY Posts: 188	The whole letter is worded to be very provocative and draw parallels between bible believers and "baby murderers". If you were honestly interested in receiving a well thought out reply, I think you would have chosen a less offensive way to present it. There is a lot of veiled arrogance and such in the letter. It would have prob been better to pull a socratic method type thing on him, feigning marginal understanding and asking like "how could god kill babies?" then when he responded and was involved you could have him bring about your conclusions. If you were just looking to call him someone who supports baby/fetus murder tho, you did a pretty good job. It's just rather evident that you already have your mind made up and not actually interested in much more than trolling. Namaste

12-05-2004, 06:49 AM	#12
dannyh44 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 30	That's a good point. I still have a lot of anger surrounding my experiences in the church, and I think that comes through some in the letter. I just get very frustrated when believers are dishonest with me on issues. If a person can show me a logical, sound reason to believe a certain thing, then I will honetstly consider it and admit If I was wrong. ON the other hand, when I point out why a Christian's belielf is wrong and support it with sound reason and even Biblical evidence, they never admit their reasoning was flawed - ever! What happened to honesty? Anyway, thanks for the response.

12-05-2004, 09:27 AM	#14
dannyh44 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 30	I think what I hear you proposing is that we as humans can never really know for sure what is a moral act and what isn't. I was always taught in the church that God has written his law upon the hearts of all men, so that all are acountable, meaning all men have an innate moral conscience that tells them when they are sinning. If we cannot trust our personal moral conscience that God has given us, then there's no way to judge morals. All we can do is look back and say "Well, we shouldn't kill pregnant women and babies, unless God tells us to" or "We shouldn't steal, unless God tells us to." Is this making sense? Thanks

12-05-2004, 10:25 AM	#15
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	I was basically saying that you cannot predicate God with terms such as "good" or "evil" because there is nothing to measure them by. The notion of God is amoral. spin

12-05-2004, 11:35 AM	#16
dannyh44 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 30	Yes, it seems one would have to take that view, that God is amoral, to justify actions in the Bible. But then, the Bible itself repeated refers to God as Good and Just, which ascribes a moralness to God.

12-05-2004, 02:47 PM	#18
dannyh44 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 30	I see what you're saying. But if anything God wills is automatically good, then there can be no universal, absolute moral constants. Right?

12-05-2004, 09:29 PM	#19
Zygote Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: SF Bay Area Posts: 766	I'm not clear on what your goal is. If you want to engage the pastor in a debate about the inerrancy of the bible, you've made a good start. If you want to convince the pastor that the entire premise of his church is flawed and that your reasons for steering clear of his church are valid, I predict you won't get very far. If you're trying to convince him that you don't want to join his church, a simple "No, thank you." is sufficient. Repeat as often as necessary.

12-06-2004, 03:11 PM	#20
dannyh44 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 30	Zygote, I hear what you're saying. Here's the truth: I see this guy from time to time in social settings and I want him to know that the reason I don't attend his church is not because I'm "turning away from God" or "hiding from the truth." I want him to know I've thought a lot about this and its not as simple as he presents to his flock. But, I haven't heard anything in two weeks and I doubt I will get a response. Thanks

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