Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Wayne P · 08-18-2004, 07:27 AM

The article in the Telegraph said:

Quote:

Dr Gibson, 43, director of the Jerusalem Archaeological Field Unit, said the tomb was in Akeldama, the "field of blood" referred to in St Matthew's Gospel.

Then the article goes on to say that:

Quote:

"But it was once a very select area, used as a burial ground by the super-wealthy, as it faced Mount Zion. It was also the site of the palace of the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, under whom Christ was crucified, as well as the houses of priests and aristocrats."

I thought that the field was bought as a potter's field?? Since when do the "superwealthy" bury themselves among paupers?

SLD · 08-18-2004, 10:11 AM

Would this discovery make any difference? Isn't JtheB an undeniably historical character? Josephus mentions him and IIRC, Philo of Alexandria does too, right? Discovering his cave proves nothing about Jesus. And even if we did find some reference to JtheB's cousin being crucified we still aren't talking about "proof" of Christianity, merely evidence of a Historical Jesus. But we aren't even close to that with this cave so what's the big frigging deal?

GaryP · 08-18-2004, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLD

Would this discovery make any difference? Isn't JtheB an undeniably historical character? Josephus mentions him and IIRC, Philo of Alexandria does too, right? Discovering his cave proves nothing about Jesus. And even if we did find some reference to JtheB's cousin being crucified we still aren't talking about "proof" of Christianity, merely evidence of a Historical Jesus. But we aren't even close to that with this cave so what's the big frigging deal?

My sentiments, also. And does it mention anyplace in the Bible that JtheB practiced his dunking skills in a cave?

Arvel Joffi · 08-18-2004, 11:11 AM

Quote:

“There are a lot less atheists than there were 50 years ago because our science is better,�? Borton said. “It seems to me every time archaeology digs up something else, they find the truth.�?

That was entertaining enough, but this is golden:

Quote:

“It’s just science catching up to where the word of God is already at,�? he said.

I can't wait until science finally realizes that the sun moves around the Earth, finds clay in our DNA, and starts referring to "disease" by its proper name - pestilance. Eventually, the science of demolition will catch up; we can watch as huge Las Vegas hotels are brought down with trumpets! A Cm7-5, and Harvey's is dust!

Back on topic, Dr. Gibson's hypothoses in both the cave and body finds are preposterous. It's obvious that the cave was used by people that followed John's rite of baptism, but that's all. If it's near where John may have lived and from the same era, then it is more likely that John entered the cave at some point, but that makes it possible, not probable.

And to say that because someone lived in the same town, in the same era as another person - who's very existence is still historically disputed - that he witnessed a specific event is stupifying.

*Edited because I don't pay enough attention when I type and leave out things like, say, nouns or verbs that are crucial to the understanding of a sentence. If there was a God, he wouldn't have put 10 thumbs on my hands!!!

Magdlyn · 08-18-2004, 11:38 AM

The article says the cave was carved 500-800 BCE. Long before Johns' time.

It is more likely to have been related to a Goddess (Asherah?), as they are often associated with grottoes.

It could have been used on and off throughout the centuries by various sects. None of them neccessarliy related to John. That is pure speculation and a leap of Faith.

And Israelites probably did not carve it. As it is found in Judah.

Amaleq13 · 08-18-2004, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLD

Isn't JtheB an undeniably historical character? Josephus mentions him...

Frank Zindler presents arguments that the Baptist references in Josephus are interpolations in The Jesus The Jews Never Knew. He does not directly consider the question of John's historicity, however, noting that it would be "beyond the scope and purpose" of his book.

anthrosciguy · 08-18-2004, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArvelJoffi

I can't wait until science finally realizes that the sun moves around the Earth, finds clay in our DNA, and starts referring to "disease" by its proper name - pestilance. Eventually, the science of demolition will catch up; we can watch as huge Las Vegas hotels are brought down with trumpets! A Cm7-5, and Harvey's is dust!

Back on topic, Dr. Gibson's hypothoses in both the cave and body finds are preposterous. It's obvious that the cave was used by people that followed John's rite of baptism, but that's all. If it's near where John may have lived and from the same era, then it is more likely that John entered the cave at some point, but that makes it possible, not probable.

Go the midwest USA and see how many caves are billed as "Jesse James' Hideout".

Toto · 08-18-2004, 04:19 PM

Christianity Today is showing a little skepticism, as if they got their fingers burnt on the ossuary.

Quote:

if you're Shimon Gibson, you get enough amazing discoveries for multiple lifetimes. He discovered a first-century leper—a huge find, given that many scholars had argued that leprosy didn't really exist in Jesus' day and that his healings were of other skin ailments. And then there was his discovery of a shrouded corpse, which Gibson said "could be that of a witness to Christ's crucifixion" and proof that the Shroud of Turin is a fake. And then there was his highly publicized warning that the Temple Mount was in danger of imminent collapse. And his findings on the "real" Via Dolorosa. And all that is just in the last few years.

EverLastingGodStopper · 08-18-2004, 05:17 PM

I read every word, Christianiy Today tore this guy up.

Toto · 08-18-2004, 11:39 PM

This story must be hot - it made Jon Stewart's the Daily Show on Comedy Central.

The head on the wall, from the brief glimpse, was little more that a circle. Identifying it with JtB is an act of imagination.

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08-18-2004, 10:11 AM	#22
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	Would this discovery make any difference? Isn't JtheB an undeniably historical character? Josephus mentions him and IIRC, Philo of Alexandria does too, right? Discovering his cave proves nothing about Jesus. And even if we did find some reference to JtheB's cousin being crucified we still aren't talking about "proof" of Christianity, merely evidence of a Historical Jesus. But we aren't even close to that with this cave so what's the big frigging deal?

08-18-2004, 11:38 AM	#25
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	The article says the cave was carved 500-800 BCE. Long before Johns' time. It is more likely to have been related to a Goddess (Asherah?), as they are often associated with grottoes. It could have been used on and off throughout the centuries by various sects. None of them neccessarliy related to John. That is pure speculation and a leap of Faith. And Israelites probably did not carve it. As it is found in Judah.

08-18-2004, 05:17 PM	#29
EverLastingGodStopper Banned Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 16,665	I read every word, Christianiy Today tore this guy up.

08-18-2004, 11:39 PM	#30
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This story must be hot - it made Jon Stewart's the Daily Show on Comedy Central. The head on the wall, from the brief glimpse, was little more that a circle. Identifying it with JtB is an act of imagination.

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