Haran

Does anyone know how thoroughly the other one-of-a-kind manuscripts that Smith found at Mar Saba have been analyzed (eg. the "fragments of Scholia on Sophocles' Ajax")?

In the article in the journal Greek, Roman, and Byzantine Studies Vol. 3 (1960), Smith has an article on this other discovery of his at the same monastery, Mar Saba, where he found Secret Mark.

I found the date of the book in which this manuscript was found interesting because of a quote in The Secret Gospel by Morton Smith, though it could simply be coincidence... Smith talks of the time before the discovery of Secret Mark and mentions Baal Shem and how he read about him...

I don't have The Secret Gospel in front of me at the moment, only quotes, so it is possible that Smith was actually talking about the discovery of the fragment mentioned above... Can someone confirm or deny this?

Regardless, I'm curious about whether this manuscript has been tested for signs of forgery. As Vork has pointed out before in slightly differing words, where there is one forgery, there are usually more.

Yuri Kuchinsky

Of course none of this proves anything... These are just some vague hints and suggestions.

Sure, some of these themes may seem somewhat uncanny from our present day perspective... But also it would certainly be more than a little uncanny that, for example, assuming SecMk is a forgery, Thomas Talley would independently discover significant supporting evidence for its authenticity -- and for Jesus' baptising activities more generally -- in little known Egyptian patristic accounts...

Thomas Talley in support of Secret Mark
http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/talley.htm

There's a simple fact that, up to now, nobody has been able to formulate any sort of a coherent theory of forgery involving Smith. This has never been done because, as soon as one starts to build such a theory, it'll be obvious right away just how preposterous the whole thing is.

My prediction is that Carlson will never offer any comprehensible and logical theory of forgery. He'll simply never be able to do this. What he'll offer us instead will be more of what Haran has done in this post -- a lot more of vague hints, suggestions, and insinuations, a whole concatenation of them.

And then there'll be this knowing smirk, "You see! Everything is clear as day, it's a forgery!"

But there'll never be any "smoking guns". And yet, I have lots of smoking guns right here, Secret Mark is authentic!

http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/secmk.htm

Cheers,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky

Of course, it's reasonably well known that the conspiracy aficionados are generally quite willing to see things that others don't quite see, and to "understand" them in their own very special ways...

Yuri.

Vorkosigan

You dog! :rolling: :rolling: That is a kick-ass coincidence of dates. I've always maintained that was a dry-run for Sec Mark. What does the title mean?

Euchai tou luchnikou kai tou orthrou

Also, Ba'al Shem -- what does that mean? Have the scholia been translated into English? They might contain something interesting.

S.C.Carlson

Unfortunately, the dates are merely coincidental. The book's title translates to "Vesper and Matin Blessings", while Ba'al Shem stands for "Baal's Name" perhaps. I could be wrong, but it does not look like there any overlap in subject matter.

I've looked at the scholia. They are written in what looks like an earlier hand. Smith said 15th century, and he claims that they basically track the published scholia with some variants. Perhaps I may take another look at these again some time.

I think that Smith got lucky and found something he could honestly publish. After all, he did use it to ask Quesnell why he didn't challenge that publication and Q. had to sputter some kind of answer.

Stephen

Vorkosigan

Of course they would....the forger can't stray too far from established models. But the basics of SecMark are there -- it's pasted on the end pieces of a book, the manuscript isn't available. Although you could read that as the real thing that inspired Secret Mark.

Vorkosigan

Haran

Baal Shem Tov

Hasidism
Image of Hasidim

Yuri, come over to the dark side... :devil3:

Haran

If you're interested:

Baal Shem Tov's letter (mentioned by Smith/containing the date 1746) - toward the bottom of the page

andrewcriddle

The quote is on p 8 of The Secret Gospel it is giving general background to Smith's interest in esoteric religion it is not talking about Smith's discoveries at Mar Saba.

Andrew Criddle

Haran

I meant to get to this earlier, but this translation confused me a little, and I wanted to look things up first and I just now found the time.

EUCAI TOU LUCNIKOU KAI TOU ORQROU

I was wondering why you translated EUCAI as 'blessings'? I thought EULOGIA translated as 'blessings' and EUCAI was the plural of EUCH (which is derived from EUCOMAI) and means 'prayers', or 'vows'.

I have not been able to locate the word LUCNIKOU, after a brief search in Lidell-Scott, BDAG, and others. It appears to be related to lamp/lampstand, but the 'KOU' is throwing me at the moment. Do lamps/lampstands somehow signify vesper, or the evening?

I suppose I would have translated it something like 'Prayers of the evening and of the dawn', in a somewhat literal fashion, or 'Evening and morning prayers' (of course, if LUCNIKOU can mean evening).... Am I wrong? Sorry, I know this is a hair off topic, but I love Greek and the opportunity to learn something I didn't know.

By the way, I believe Ba'al is a title of sorts that means "Lord" or "Master" in Hebrew, so Baal Shem would loosely translate as "Lord, or Master, of The Name".