Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IamJoseph · 08-09-2009, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

I think the point is that the actions of the biblical Jews were far from moral and exemplary, and are more inlinme with the warlike and agressive wandering tribes they started out as.

Humanity itself is warlike. But the Jews never stole anyone's lands in all their 4000 year history.

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In fact the prophets were not popular among the Jews, they tended to point out the imorality of the times, not unlike JC.

Since slavery was not banned by god, then surely it is not imoral biblicaly. JC said if you are a slave, be a good one and a credit to your master. This was reinforced by Paul.

Slavery predated jews, and the Hebrew bible converted slavery to contracted worker - via its laws.

Joan of Bark · 08-09-2009, 02:25 AM

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Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Didn't abraham essentialy pimp out his wife, as we would say today?

No. The position he found himself in would have got him killed - thus he was saving not just himself but also Sarah. The peoples of Egypt had never seen a blonde haired woman before ['AND SARAH WAS FAIR TO LOOK UPON'/GEN], and it was the custom that a beautiful woman or anything precious was to be taken to the Pharoah as his concubine and possession. A brother would not be killed but a husband would.

I've heard this lame excuse for Abraham's actions before. First of all, why didn't the moral YWHW whisper in Abe's ear: hey, buddy, no need to turn your wife into a prostitute to cover your own ass. I'll protect you.

Besides, when the pharaoh discovered the ruse, he didn't kill anyone. Indeed, he was indignant over Abraham's lies. The pharaoh comes out of this story looking more moral than Abraham or YHWH.

premjan · 08-09-2009, 05:59 AM

Ur is in Iraq - are they of Persian ethnicity? They speak Arabic.

IamJoseph · 08-09-2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Ur is in Iraq - are they of Persian ethnicity? They speak Arabic.

Correct. But Iraq is a recent new state invented by the Brits. Ur, under Mesopotamia, incorporated many countries and most of the levant, even upto parts of India, and was ruled by Persia. There were no Arabs in Abraham's time.

IamJoseph · 08-09-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

No. The position he found himself in would have got him killed - thus he was saving not just himself but also Sarah. The peoples of Egypt had never seen a blonde haired woman before ['AND SARAH WAS FAIR TO LOOK UPON'/GEN], and it was the custom that a beautiful woman or anything precious was to be taken to the Pharoah as his concubine and possession. A brother would not be killed but a husband would.

I've heard this lame excuse for Abraham's actions before. First of all, why didn't the moral YWHW whisper in Abe's ear: hey, buddy, no need to turn your wife into a prostitute to cover your own ass. I'll protect you.

Besides, when the pharaoh discovered the ruse, he didn't kill anyone. Indeed, he was indignant over Abraham's lies. The pharaoh comes out of this story looking more moral than Abraham or YHWH.

Abaraham is made the bad guy for fibbing to save his wife and his life, against the great morality of the pharoah. No wonder humanity is swimming in chaos!

steve_bnk · 08-09-2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

Ur is in Iraq - are they of Persian ethnicity? They speak Arabic.

If you want to pick a serious fight refer to a Persian(aka Iranian) as 'Arab'...

steve_bnk · 08-09-2009, 11:29 PM

I've known many good peole with relgiious faith and I support freedom of relgion for a number of reasons, but when I listen to IAJ's proclamations I can only think what the hell are we doing mired in these beliefs and arguments based in the early times of ignorance in human histiory, in this his day of mass education, communications, and science, why the are we beliveing in these ancinet myths as truth?

After all this time the utter irationality of these beliefs are realy just sinking in.

IamJoseph · 08-10-2009, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

I've known many good peole with relgiious faith and I support freedom of relgion for a number of reasons, but when I listen to IAJ's proclamations I can only think what the hell are we doing mired in these beliefs and arguments based in the early times of ignorance in human histiory, in this his day of mass education, communications, and science, why the are we beliveing in these ancinet myths as truth?

After all this time the utter irationality of these beliefs are realy just sinking in.

Freedom of religion: where do you think this premise comes from, and who is abusing it today - I mean which religions?

Joan of Bark · 08-10-2009, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

I've heard this lame excuse for Abraham's actions before. First of all, why didn't the moral YWHW whisper in Abe's ear: hey, buddy, no need to turn your wife into a prostitute to cover your own ass. I'll protect you.

Besides, when the pharaoh discovered the ruse, he didn't kill anyone. Indeed, he was indignant over Abraham's lies. The pharaoh comes out of this story looking more moral than Abraham or YHWH.

Abaraham is made the bad guy for fibbing to save his wife and his life, against the great morality of the pharoah. No wonder humanity is swimming in chaos!

Did you even read my post, Joseph?

You call prostituting your wife "fibbing"? And I ask again, why didn't the omnipotent, omniscient YHWH say something to Abraham? Something like: you're safe, turkey. Keep your wife and morality intact. I am the all-powerful YHWH, and I will protect you!

Face it, YHWH was an asshole, and Abraham was his apprentice. In fact, many of the patriarchs were jerks. Hell, Isaac followed in daddy's footsteps by prostituting his wife to the king of the Philistines. Moses was a murderer. David was an adulterer and a murderer. Solomon makes Hugh Hefner look like a eunuch. Do you really admire these fictional characters?

steve_bnk · 08-10-2009, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

I've known many good peole with relgiious faith and I support freedom of relgion for a number of reasons, but when I listen to IAJ's proclamations I can only think what the hell are we doing mired in these beliefs and arguments based in the early times of ignorance in human histiory, in this his day of mass education, communications, and science, why the are we beliveing in these ancinet myths as truth?

After all this time the utter irationality of these beliefs are realy just sinking in.

Freedom of religion: where do you think this premise comes from, and who is abusing it today - I mean which religions?

I am saying in the Jefersonia sense I support freedom of relgion as part of free speech and intectualnquiorey, hoiwver belifs in ancuent superstition is to me becoming increasinglt absurd.

Argueing that Genesis is the basis for western science as you do is absurd to say the least.

As to abuse of freedom of the western concept of freedom of relgion, one only has to look at the concervatves of most of the wrold's religions who given the chance would impoose their faith on all of us.

The concept of freedom of relgious thought short of imposition on others is a over here is a Jeffersonian/Enlightenment concept.

As a biblical literalist such as you who believes in the Abrahamic creator and authority on morality, there can be no other religion.

Religion has served its purpose in history and has outlived it's usefulness.

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that religiius faith is akin to a superstituous belief not unlike all other superstitions.

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08-09-2009, 05:59 AM	#33
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Ur is in Iraq - are they of Persian ethnicity? They speak Arabic.

08-09-2009, 11:29 PM	#37
steve_bnk Contributor Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,602	I've known many good peole with relgiious faith and I support freedom of relgion for a number of reasons, but when I listen to IAJ's proclamations I can only think what the hell are we doing mired in these beliefs and arguments based in the early times of ignorance in human histiory, in this his day of mass education, communications, and science, why the are we beliveing in these ancinet myths as truth? After all this time the utter irationality of these beliefs are realy just sinking in.

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