TonyN

Here is where proskairos is used in the Concordant Literal New Testament:

(Mat 13:21) yet has no root in himself, but is temporary (toward-season). Now at the coming of affliction or persecution because of the word, straightway he is snared."

(Mar 4:17) And they have no root in themselves, but are temporary (toward-seasons). Thereafter, at the coming of affliction or persecution because of the word, straightway they are being snared."

(2Co 4:18) at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary (toward-seasons), yet what is not being observed is eonian."

(Heb 11:25) preferring rather to be maltreated with the people of God than to have a temporary (toward-season) enjoyment of sin,


And this is where Kairos is used in the CLNT as "season":

(Mat 8:29) And lo! they cry, saying, "What is it to us and to Thee, Son of God! Didst Thou come here to torment us before the season?

(Mat 11:25) At that season, answering, Jesus said, "I am acclaiming Thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for Thou hidest these things from the wise and intelligent and Thou dost reveal them to minors."

(Mat 12:1) At that season Jesus went through the sowings on the sabbaths. Now His disciples hunger, and they begin to be plucking the ears and to be eating."

(Mat 13:30) Leave both to grow up together until the harvest, and in the season of the harvest I shall be declaring to the reapers, 'Cull first the darnel, and bind them into bundles to burn them up. Yet the grain gather into my barn.'"

(Mat 14:1) At that season Herod the tetrarch hears tidings of Jesus,

(Mat 21:34) Now when the season of the fruits draws near, he dispatches his slaves to the farmers to be getting his fruits."

(Mat 24:45) Who, consequently, is the faithful and prudent slave whom the lord places over his household to give them nourishment in season?

(Mar 11:13) And perceiving one fig tree from afar having leaves, He came, if, consequently, He will be finding anything on it. And coming to it, He found nothing except leaves, for it was not the season of figs."

(Mar 12:2) And he dispatches to the farmers, at the season, a slave, that from the farmers he may be getting from the fruits of the vineyard."

(Luk 1:20) And lo! silent shall you be and not able to speak until the day on which these things may be occurring, because you do not believe my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season."

(Luk 8:13) Now those on the rock are those who, whenever they should be hearing, with joy are receiving the word. And these have no root, who are believing for a season and, in a season of trial, are withdrawing."

(Luk 12:42) And the Lord said, "Who, consequently, is the faithful and prudent administrator, whom the lord will be placing over his attendance, to be giving them the measure of grain in season.?

(Luk 20:10) And in season he dispatches to the farmers a slave, that they shall give him of the fruit of the vineyard. Yet the farmers, lashing him, send him away empty."

(Luk 21:8) Now He said, "Beware that you may not be deceived, for many shall be coming in My name, saying that I am!' and 'The season is near!' You may not, then, be going after them."

(Joh 5:4) (For a messenger of the Lord at a certain season bathed in the pool and disturbed the water. He, then, who first steps in after the disturbing of the water, became sound of whatsoever disease he was held.)"

(Joh 7:6) Jesus, then, is saying to them, "The season for Me is not as yet present; yet the season for you is always present, ready."

(Joh 7:8) You go up to this festival. I am not going up to this festival, for the season for Me has not as yet been fulfilled."

(Act 12:1) Now at that season Herod the king put forth his hands to illtreat some from the ecclesia.

(Act 19:23) Now at that season no slight disturbance occurred concerning the way;

(1Co 4:5) So that, be not judging anything before the season, till the Lord should be coming, Who will also illuminate the hidden things of darkness and manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then applause will be coming to each one from God."

(2Co 6:2) For He is saying, "In a season acceptable I reply to you, And in a day of salvation I help you.Lo! Now is a most acceptable era! Lo! Now is a day of salvation!"

(Gal 6:9) Now we may not be despondent in ideal doing, for in due season we shall be reaping, if we do not faint."

(1Pe 5:6) Be humbled, then, under the mighty hand of God, that He should be exalting you in season,

(Rev 12:12) Therefore, make merry, ye heavens, and those tabernacling in them! Woe to the land and the sea, for the Adversary descended to you having great fury, being aware that brief is the season that he has."

(Rev 12:14) And given to the woman were the two wings of a large vulture, that she may be flying into the wilderness into her place, there where she is nourished a season, and seasons, and half a season, from the face of the serpent."

My statement stands:
(2 Cor. 4:18) at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary (toward-seasons), yet what is not being observed is eonian."

2 Corinthians 4:18 is not between something that is temporary and eternal but between that which it temporary or "toward-season" and between something that is a lot longer than something lasting for a season which in its nature is temporary. That something is eonian. Eonian is just the adjective of aion and is telling us that which pertains to the eon(s). It is between something that lasts but a short time and something that lasts for a much much longer time but not eternal.

It can't be eternal for there is not one aion/eon which is eternal. The Bible says all the eons end. Therefore that which pertains to the eons is not capable of that which pertains to eternity. This is not root word falacy. It is the truth.

New Atheist

Can you explain to me what the data was?

Not a lot really... I never said I've spend a lot of time on it.

I can't find a reference to αιωνας in any ancient greek text meaning a century, I don't think I will since I'm not going to look anyway Even if I wanted to, where am I supposed to find an ancient Greek text (don;t sent me a link with ancient Greek texts now, I'm not going to read them)
I'll give you that you might be right that the word might not have meant a 100 year period. Αιων from this http://www.komvos.edu.gr/dictionarie...tOnLineKri.htm and the this etymological http://copernikos.tripod.com/etymologiko.htm is given as eternal, forever (and notice the first is not for modern greek, so you can't accuse me of that there). Given that αιωνας comes from αιων I'll admit that it might have had a general meaning of a long period of time before the modern Greek version (though also note that in my original post I also said that the word doesn't have to be interpreted to mean a specific 100 year period of time).
As I said I just skimmed this thread, so I don't know what the hell you've been arguing about. But I saw people saying that αιωνας means a 1000 year period. If you are going to talk about the word as a fixed period of time- which I did say is not necessary- then you will talk about 100 year periods not 1000.

The number of years wasn't even the point though, the point was that the word αιωνιος is an adjective that means eternal, and not an adjective that means a specific time period. Ι thought the whole point of the thread was that αιωνιος did not mean eternal.
And since προσκαιρο does exist in κοινη since its the passage that was quoted, can you tell me what is YOUR interpretation of the word?

New Atheist

jg I don't get this, the word was obviously there in the quote Tony put!!! I trust that the quote is from a new testament passage? What language is the new testament written in? Did Tony get a passage and add the word προσκαιρο in there all by himself? If it's in the passage quoted it's obviously a word that was used in the new testament, since that's where Tony found it, and the new testament was written in koini!!!

I don't really know if the word was used in ancient greek. I assumed that Tony gave us a genuine passage from the New Testament? Was he quoting something else? I didn't really notice.

New Atheist

May I also note that whatever the meaning of words is, I have no idea what you arguing about? I take it that there is an arguement that has its basis on one word meaning one thing and not something else?

jgibson000

Really? Then why don't I see the word PROSKAIROS in the texts (from the KJV?) that you quote?.

What is actually the case is that you've provided us only with the instances in which the Elizabethan term "season" is used as a translation of PROSKAIROS.

More importantly, your assumption that the English word means what you think it means, let alone that "season" is an accurate translation of PROSKAIROS, is open to doubt.

And why should anyone accept what the Concordant Literal Translation says as true? It is not a Greek lexicon nor does it present itself as such.

But even if "the Bible" says what you say it does, you conclusion is dubious. You are assuming what needs to be proven, namely, that AIWNIOS does "pertain to eons" and that it derives its meaning solely from the meaning of the noun AIWN.

It may not be the "root fallacy" (do you even know what that fallacy is?). But it's hardly the truth.

JG

New Atheist

jg, I've went to this site: http://www.gospel.gr/ and selected to view the ancient Greek text (which is apparently the one the orthodox ecumenical patriarchate uses), and checked one of the passages Tony quotes. In Corintians B at least the word προσκαιρα appears: "τὰ γὰρ βλεπόμενα πρόσκαιρα, τὰ δὲ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια."

But I stand by my interpretation of the word. I'm not sure what Tony is trying to say. As I'm going to say again, I only skimmed through the threat, I've got not idea what you are talking about.

But this should at least show that the word was in use at the time the NT was written.

jgibson000

No, the word PROSXERO was not in the quote "Tony put". And it is hardly obvious that it was.

It was in a claim you made in response to Tony's message about PROSKAIROS.

Here are your words:

Are you now saying that you didn't write this, that you made no claim that the word Tony was talking about was PROSXERO, and that you didn't go on to make a claim not only that PROSXERO was an ancient Greek word what it was that that (purportedly) ancient Greek word meant?

If not, what is there that you don't get?

JG

jgibson000

Which one? PROSKAIRW or the one you yourself spoke about and defined, namely, PROSXERO?

PROSKAIRW, yes. But not, as you claimed, PROSXERO.

JG

TonyN

"pros" is "toward" in Greek. "kairos" is "season" in Greek as attested to by all the Scriptures brought to bear on this. It is not assumption but fact.

For instance, many bibles translate "kairos" as "before the time" as here:

(ASV) And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? (Matt.8:29).
But the CLV (Concordant Literal Version) translated it correctly as:

(CLV) And lo! they cry, saying, "What is it to us and to Thee, Son of God! Didst Thou come here to torment us before the season? (Matt.8:29)

pro kairou is in 8:29. It is not "pro kronos) where "kronos" is "time" in Greek.

It is accepted by many. But if it was accepted by no one that does not prove it to be incorrect.
Not all lexicons represent the truth as to how a Greek word should be translated either. Lexicons are just a tool showing how a given word was translated or interpreted and may or may not be correct.

You asked for proskairos proof in ancient texts. Here they are in the NT. I'm sure there is a plethora of them in the Septuagint as well:

Mat 13:21 οὐκ ἔχει δὲ ῥίζαν ἐν ἑαυτῷ, ἀλλὰ πρόσκαιρός ἐστι, γενομένης δὲ θλίψεως ἢ διωγμοῦ διὰ τὸν λόγον εὐθὺς σκανδαλίζεται.

(Mat 13:21) yet has no root in himself, but is temporary (toward-season). Now at the coming of affliction or persecution because of the word, straightway he is snared."

Mar 4:17 καὶ οὐκ ἔχουσι ῥίζαν ἐν ἑαυτοῖς, ἀλλὰ πρόσκαιροί εἰσιν. εἶτα γενομένης θλίψεως ἢ διωγμοῦ διὰ τὸν λόγον, εὐθὺς σκανδαλίζονται.

(Mar 4:17) And they have no root in themselves, but are temporary (toward-seasons). Thereafter, at the coming of affliction or persecution because of the word, straightway they are being snared."

2Cor. 4:18 μὴ σκοπούντων ἡμῶν τὰ βλεπόμενα, ἀλλὰ τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα· τὰ γὰρ βλεπόμενα πρόσκαιρα, τὰ δὲ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια.

(2Cor. 4:18) at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary (toward-seasons), yet what is not being observed is eonian."

Heb 11:25 μᾶλλον ἑλόμενος συγκακουχεῖσθαι τῷ λαῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἢ πρόσκαιρον ἔχειν ἁμαρτίας ἀπόλαυσιν,

(Heb 11:25) preferring rather to be maltreated with the people of God than to have a temporary (toward-season) enjoyment of sin,

I actually enjoy reading the Alexandrinus, Vaticanus and Sinaticus in their uncial renditions better but can't find a program to show the uncial versions of the above texts.

I assume nothing.
Look at any adjective in the Greek manuscripts. For instance, in Luke 2:13 the HEAVENLY host were praising God. Here OURANIOU is an adjective.
In Luke 2:15, the angels went back to HEAVEN which is the noun OURANON in the text. The heavenly host's origin is pertaining to heaven.

Likewise in Mark 10:30 we have this: "who should not be getting back a hundredfold now, in this era, houses and brothers and sisters and mother and father and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the coming eon, life eonian." Where eonian is the adjective and eon is the noun, the life eonian is that life which is pertaining to the eon Jesus just spoke of.


Duh, gee doc, uh, I guess I does.

New Atheist

JG. As you may know, Greek words are written in Greek characters, not english. When writing προσκαιρος I may type proskairos, or prosxeros, or proskeros, or proskairos. I don't check my spelling in a language that doesn't exist. When writing in so called Greeklish, I just try the sound the words will make when read in the english characters will produce the same sound as the greek words. Admitedly the x shouldn't be there, I should have written proskairos or proskeros. I didn't realise you thought I was talking about a word προσχερος. I doubt that word even exists. I thought it obvious I was talking about the word Tony was using.

If I want to say αιωνιος does it matter if I say aionios or aiwnios? w is not an omega. aionios should be the correct form actually since w is not pronounced as o in English, so somebody who is not familiar with the pronounciation of the letter omega will pronounce the word aiwnios completely different that what it really sounds like. In the same way, it might as well be eonios since again, in English the letters ai are not pronounced as e as in Greek.

Am I supposed to mind my spelling in a non-existent language?

Edit: Admitedly the error is probably mine. When chatting with Greeks over the internet we use english characters and we are used to not really mind how each one spells the word with the english characters. Somebody might spell a word completely differently than another person. Everyone knows what word is meant, so its not a big deal, but apparently I shouldn't have assumed that here.

Edit 2: Note however I did not make any claim that Tony was using a different word than what he should have been using, that προσκαιρος is spelled προσχερος or that there is a different but better word named προσχερος instead of προσκαιρος. The context of my original post was that the word Tony was using should be translated as temporary. I never made any mention of bad spelling, or of a SECOND word.