maryhelena

Or in the gospel JC storybook .....:huh:

aa5874

You mean like using ADMITTED DISCREDITED Gospels to claim Jesus did exist and did NOT pay his taxes.

"PULLLEASE"

maryhelena

Further on identifying the Queen Helene of the Toledot Yeshu.

First, a recap.

1, The wife of Alexander Jannaeus was not named Helene. The wife of Alexander Jannaeus was named Salome Alexandra.

2. A proposed identification with Helena of Adiabene, who died in 56 c.e. is not only illogical re a birth of the Yeshu figure in 90 b.c., but is also an attempt to link the Toledot Yeshu figure to the gospel JC timeframe. A proposed link that would have to reject the 90 b.c. birth date in the time of Alexander Jannaeus: 90 b.c. to the death of the gospel JC, around 30 c.e., would make that gospel JC about 120 years - and, of course, requiring the rejection of the gospel birth narratives in the time of Herod the Great and in the time of Quirinius.

The proposed identification of the Queen Helene of the Toledot Yeshu is Queen Cleopatra Selene II, born 40 b.c. Date of death uncertain.

The name of ‘Helene’ can have a link to the name of ‘Selene’.

Cleopatra Selene II was named ‘Selene’, meaning 'moon', because her twin brother was named after the 'sun'.

(interesting, as name-play goes....Cleopatra Selene has a brother named Alexander - as, in the Toledot Yeshu, Queen Helene is linked to Alexander Jannaeus...)

Cleopatra Selene II married Juba II of Numidia. And it is here, with this marriage that problems begin re dating her death.





The husband of Cleopatra Selene II , Juba II, is reported to have married the widow of Alexander, son of Mariamne I and Herod the Great, Glaphyra. Glaphyra later divorcing Juba II to marry the son of Herod the Great, Archelaus.

Consequently, because of the marriage of Juba II to Glaphyra, questions over the dating of the death of Cleopatra Selene II are open. Did she die prior to this marriage or was there a divorce and Juba II married Glaphyra. Another divorce and a re-marriage of Juba II to Cleopatra Selene II?

Identifying the Queen Helene of the Toledot Yeshu, as Queen Cleopatra Selene II, does has value for the gospel time frame. Queen Cleopatra Selene II, is the daughter of Marc Antony, the Roman executioner of the last King and High Priest of the Jews, Antigonus, in 37 b.c. The husband of Cleopatra Selene II, Juba II, is linked to the widow of Alexander, son of the Hasmonean Mariamne and Herod the Great. Herod the Great being responsible for sending Antigonus to Marc Antony for execution in Antioch. Glaphyra, after divorcing Juba II, marries Archelaus, son of Herod the Great.

(thus re-enacting a brother-in-law marriage - as did Alexander Jannaeus with his brother’s wife Salome Alexandra.)

Did Cleopatra Selene II live until 30 c.e. Possible of course. But the relevance of 30 c.e. relates to a fictional gospel figure of JC - and of no historical relevance. The historical relevance is the birth of Cleopatra Selene II in 40 b.c. Herod is made King, in Rome, Antigonus is made King and High Priest, in Jerusalem. While these 70 years are historically relevant for the gospel JC storyboard - from 40 b.c. to 30 c.e. (gLuke and his Lysanias of Abilene), these 70 years are not the only relevant historical years in which to search for the origins, the roots from which early christianity sprung.

If the Yeshu story of the Toledot Yeshu is of any value at all, that value is in dating the relevant historical time frame to the time of Alexander Jannaeus. Yes, the Yeshu character is dated to 90 b.c. - but Yeshu, like JC, is a literary creation. It’s the Alexander Jannaeus time frame that is relevant - 103 -76 b.c. During those years Antigonus, the last Hasmonean King and High Priest was most probably born. (in 63 b.c. Antigonus was captured and taken prisoner to Rome) Alexander Jannaeus was his grandfather. Antigonus was executed in 37 b.c. during the life of Queen Helene/Cleopatra Selene II.

What this does indicate is that the history of Antigonus, most probably born while his grandfather Alexander Jannaeus was alive, and executed during the life of Queen Helene/Cleopatra Selene II, is relevant for the creation of the literary figure of the gospel JC. That history, the history of Antigonus, is fused, mixed, with the history of a later figure, who was not executed by Rome, into the pseudo-historical gospel figure of JC. In other words; the gospel literary figure of JC is a composite figure; a composite figure reflecting the life stories of two major historical figures. And the value of the Toledot Yeshu is that it's story, with it's outside the gospel time frame dating, is indicating that the roots of that gospel JC story go back to a birth that is way beyond the time of Herod the Great.

Duvduv

In fact according to the Talmud Miriam refused to be marred Herod who was from a family of Edomite slaves and committed suicide by jumping from a building.

maryhelena

The Talmud verse Josephus?

Since we don't have historical evidence all we can do is run with both stories and see where they take us....

1) The Talmud story would suggest we ditch the writing of Josephus. Thus no Hasmonean/Herodian mixed bloodline re the children of this marriage.

2) The Josephus story re Mariamne and Herod the Great and the mixed, fused, Hasmonean/Herodian bloodline, could suggest that such a mixed bloodline, could well provide an insight into early christian thinking, re 'Paul', that neither Jew nor Greek were of any special consequence. No longer a chosen people - all are welcome......

DCHindley

Hi Duvduv,

Could you provide a citation to that story?

Do you mean something like this site?

DCH (on break boss)

maryhelena

I've previously asked Duvduv the same question...
A link to his reply:


And this is the relevant quotation:

Duvduv

How could Epiphanius at the end of the 4th century suggest that a Historical Jesus lived at the time of Alexander Jannaeus in the first century BCE IF THE OSTENSIBLY KNOWN GOSPELS FROM TWO HUNDRED YEARS OR MORE EARLIER INDICATE OTHERWISE??! No one should say that he "made a mistake" if he had his four gospels available and any conceivable writings of any heresiologist/historian ostensibly all the way back to the second century:

http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-me..._100/ch19.html
For with the advent of the Christ, the succession of the princes from Judah, who reigned until the Christ Himself, ceased. The order [of succession] failed and stopped at the time when He was born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Alexander, who was of high-priestly and royal race; and after this Alexander this lot failed, from the times of himself and Salina, who is also called Alexandra, for the times of Herod the King and Augustus Emperor of the Romans ; and this Alexander, one of the anointed (or Christs) and ruling princes placed the crown on his own head.

maryhelena

It just is not logical to assume that someone could have the JC gospel story in full view - and place the JC birth narrative in the time of Alexander Jannaeus. Unless, unless, someone was not running with the idea of a historical JC....

Epiphanius must have had that Toledot Yeshu story in mind...and was somehow trying to reconcile the two stories - or at least, trying to understand the two stories. And perhaps - he also was aware of the relevance of Hasmonean history to that JC storyboard. Better that, methinks, than doing what modern day scholars are doing - rejecting the Toledot Yeshu story as of no consequence to the gospel JC storyboard.

Wikipedia dates the earliest Toledot Yeshu manuscript to the 11th century - and with Epiphanius ( 4th century) placing a JC birth narrative in the time of Alexander Jannaeus, it's pretty obvious that the Yeshu story is older than the dating of the earliest manuscript we have. The Toledot Yeshu manuscript dating is of no real relevance to the story contained within that manuscript. The story is older, much older, than the dating of the manuscript. And if this is so with the story within the Toledot Yeshu manuscript - then dating the gospel JC story to be written after Paul's epistles has no foundation at all....Tracing early christian origins should not be relying on the slippery slope of manuscript dating.

It looks to me that the Toledot Yeshu story is not so much a parody of the gospel JC story - but a prototype that developed into the JC story we now have. It's illogical to date a parody backward to a time of no relevance to the story it sets out to mock - it's logical to develop a prototype...

Duvduv

Maryhelena, Epiphanius may simply have heard of the Talmudic information about Yeshu which is the background for Toldoth Yeshu.
But it still ignores the fact that the Christian holy writ makes no mention of jannaeus. And as a Christian that would be all that would be of importance.