Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Kesler · 04-10-2008, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

In favour of the idea that 'out of the country' means out of the earthly plane; we have Luke's version in 8:31

Quote:

And they begged him not to command them to depart into the abyss

EIS THN ABUSSON

I see this more as Luke's broadening the scope of the miracle from being a local event in Jesus' ministry to taking a more eschatological perspective, similar to what Luke's Jesus does in 10:17-18:

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17 The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, in your name even the demons submit to us!" 18He said to them, "I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning.

Matthew's account also alludes to the demons' ultimate fate:

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28 When he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demoniacs coming out of the tombs met him. They were so fierce that no one could pass that way. 29 Suddenly they shouted, "What have you to do with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"

Solo · 04-10-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

In favour of the idea that 'out of the country' means out of the earthly plane; we have Luke's version in 8:31 EIS THN ABUSSON

I see this more as Luke's broadening the scope of the miracle from being a local event in Jesus' ministry to taking a more eschatological perspective, similar to what Luke's Jesus does in 10:17-18:

Matthew's account also alludes to the demons' ultimate fate:

Quote:

28 When he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demoniacs coming out of the tombs met him. They were so fierce that no one could pass that way. 29 Suddenly they shouted, "What have you to do with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"

I don't think it was a subtle point that Mark was making about the demoniac's preoccupation with the eschaton (5:2-3). Luke and Matthew simply extend or transfer the eschatological Angst to the demons.

Jiri

Gamera · 04-10-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

The "other" side of the sea (Lake Tiberias -- Sea of Galilee) puts our Joshua (Yeshua -- Jesus) out of Israel and Judah.

No Jewish community keeps a herd of pigs.

He rejected the gentile applicant. Today we might call the EEOC.

Well, that's a somewhat uncharitable construction. I might suggest that Jesus wanted him to do exactly what he asked him to: go and tell the other gentiles about the incident, presumably to spread the word of the Christian movement, or at least prepare the way for it. The last thing Jesus needed was another disciple.

Toto · 04-10-2008, 04:23 PM

Chili digression split off here

aa5874 · 04-10-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I don't know of any human being that can answer those questions. And as far as I understand, Jesus, the pigs, the demons, the requests, the dialogue, the sea and the madman are all the creation of the author of gMark or some-else that the author may have copied from.

I am a human being who can answer questions about worlds known through narration.

Your belief that the narrative is the creation of the author of gMark ("or some-else that the author may have copied from") is irrelevant.

Why did Socrates drink the hemlock? Does it matter whether Socrates really drank the hemlock, to answer that question? Would it be any different an answer if the historical Socrates absconded to Egypt after his trial and ran a profitable cat grooming service in his elder years?

Well, I will sit back, relax and read your answers.

Chili · 04-11-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

The "other" side of the sea (Lake Tiberias -- Sea of Galilee) puts our Joshua (Yeshua -- Jesus) out of Israel and Judah.

No Jewish community keeps a herd of pigs.

He rejected the gentile applicant. Today we might call the EEOC.

America likes pig ranches and are now into mega ranches were pig is pig as long as it grunts and wants more of the same.

George S · 04-11-2008, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

The "other" side of the sea (Lake Tiberias -- Sea of Galilee) puts our Joshua (Yeshua -- Jesus) out of Israel and Judah.

No Jewish community keeps a herd of pigs.

He rejected the gentile applicant. Today we might call the EEOC.

Well, that's a somewhat uncharitable construction. I might suggest that Jesus wanted him to do exactly what he asked him to: go and tell the other gentiles about the incident, presumably to spread the word of the Christian movement, or at least prepare the way for it. The last thing Jesus needed was another disciple.

It was not the only time that he was anti-gentile.

Matt. 10:5. ... Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not ...

Gamera · 04-11-2008, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Hathaway

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Well, that's a somewhat uncharitable construction. I might suggest that Jesus wanted him to do exactly what he asked him to: go and tell the other gentiles about the incident, presumably to spread the word of the Christian movement, or at least prepare the way for it. The last thing Jesus needed was another disciple.

It was not the only time that he was anti-gentile.

Matt. 10:5. ... Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not ...

Oh, he says even more anti-gentile things than that:

Matthew 15:26 - And he answered, "It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

But of course, he changes his mind:

Matthew 15:27 - She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly. 29

I think the key here is that Jesus' ministry is evolving even as he speaks.

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04-10-2008, 04:23 PM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Chili digression split off here

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