Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 04-23-2013, 03:35 PM

Luke 16:16: The Good News of God's Kingdom Is Proclaimed and Everyone Is Forced into It by Ilaria L. E. Ramelli, Journal of Biblical Literature , Vol. 127, No. 4 (Winter, 2008), pp. 737-758.

Ramelli argues for the above translation of Luke 16:16.

This essentially supports conversion to Christianity by the sword.

Please discuss.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-23-2013, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Luke 16:16: The Good News of God's Kingdom Is Proclaimed and Everyone Is Forced into It by Ilaria L. E. Ramelli, Journal of Biblical Literature , Vol. 127, No. 4 (Winter, 2008), pp. 737-758.

Ramelli argues for the above translation of Luke 16:16.

This essentially supports conversion to Christianity by the sword.

Please discuss.

You conveniently (or out of ignoarce -- did you actually read all of the article?) neglect to tell us that Rammeli argues that the translation should be "The Good News of God's Kingdom Is Proclaimed and Everyone Is Forced into It BY GOD", that Kingdom does NOT mean Christianity, and that there is no element of violent or life threatening compulsion here.

Jeffrey

mountainman · 04-23-2013, 08:40 PM

Yes Jeffrey I did read the whole article.

About whether it is God who is doing the pushing the author writes:

Quote:

Thus, against almost all of the commentators, who generally take βιάζεται in 16:16 either as "endeavors, tries hard" or as "uses force on, against," I think that βιάζεται here must be interpreted as a passive:

"The kingdom of God is being preached and everyone is forced into it."

In my view it is probably a theological passive, all the more in that God is mentioned immediately before, as the Lord of the kingdom itself.

I think he mentions that a theological interpretation might be that God was doing the forcing, but God is not in the phrase with the forcing.

The key point throughout the article is that the evidence indicates that, whatever the verb βιάζεται translates to, it is consistent to translate it in a passive and not an active sense.

Looking through the list of comparative translations below, I can only see one passive translation, and the rest all active. So I think the author may be making a valid point about the appropriateness of using the passive sense.

Cyril of Alexandria's exegesis of Luke 16:16

The author presents this (p.754):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyril of Alexandria's exegesis of Luke 16:16

Since the kingdom of heaven is the faith in Christ, it began with John the Bap tist's announcement, who showed that the announced one would lead to the Kingdom through baptism.

Those who are forced to enter the kingdom of heaven are those who detach themselves from the old and trivial custom of idolatry and those who pay no attention to the mere literal meaning, but they are dragged to the other side with violence, so to say, by the faith in Christ.

We all know that Cyril of Alexandria was not averse in using violence.

The question whether this verse may have been interpreted literally by people like Cyril of Alexandria is not trivial.

From a comparative look at Luke 16:16:

Quote:

Originally Posted by .......◄ Luke 16:16 ►.....

New International Version (©2011)
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Until John the Baptist, the law of Moses and the messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is eager to get in.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
"The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is strongly urged to enter it.

International Standard Version (©2012)
"The Law and the Prophets remained until John. Since then, the good news about the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone entering it is under attack.

NET Bible (©2006)
"The law and the prophets were in force until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urged to enter it.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“The Law and The Prophets were until Yohannan; from then, the Kingdom of God is announced, and everyone is pushing to enter it.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Moses' Teachings and the Prophets were [in force] until the time of John. Since that time, people have been telling the Good News about the kingdom of God, and everyone is trying to force their way into it.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.

American King James Version
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.

American Standard Version
The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and every man entereth violently into it.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The law and the prophets were until John; from that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every one useth violence towards it.

Darby Bible Translation
The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the glad tidings of the kingdom of God are announced, and every one forces his way into it.

English Revised Version
The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the gospel of the kingdom of God is preached, and every man entereth violently into it.

Webster's Bible Translation
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Weymouth New Testament
The Law and the Prophets continued until John came: from that time the Good News of the Kingdom of God has been spreading, and all classes have been forcing their way into it.

World English Bible
The law and the prophets were until John. From that time the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.

Young's Literal Translation
the law and the prophets are till John; since then the reign of God is proclaimed good news, and every one doth press into it;

Thanks.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Iskander · 04-24-2013, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Luke 16:16: The Good News of God's Kingdom Is Proclaimed and Everyone Is Forced into It by Ilaria L. E. Ramelli, Journal of Biblical Literature , Vol. 127, No. 4 (Winter, 2008), pp. 737-758.

Ramelli argues for the above translation of Luke 16:16.

This essentially supports conversion to Christianity by the sword.

Please discuss.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Luke 16:16

Geza Vermes, The authentic Gospels of Jesus, Penguin Books,
ISBN 139780141003603.Page 128

Quote:

Matt 13.33; Luke 13.20-21 .These verses of Matthew and Luke are announcing the imperceptible gestation before the manifestation of the Kingdom of God. This concept of the peaceful arrival of the Kingdom stands against another, less common representation in which it bursts violently into the world.[matt 11.11-12;luke 16.16)

The NT is inviting the reader to consider whether any profound change in the way a given society is organized would be accessible without upsetting anybody and hence peaceful?

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-24-2013, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Yes Jeffrey I did read the whole article.

About whether it is God who is doing the pushing the author writes:

Quote:

Thus, against almost all of the commentators, who generally take βιάζεται in 16:16 either as "endeavors, tries hard" or as "uses force on, against," I think that βιάζεται here must be interpreted as a passive:

"The kingdom of God is being preached and everyone is forced into it."

In my view it is probably a theological passive, all the more in that God is mentioned immediately before, as the Lord of the kingdom itself.

I think he mentions

She not he (http://www.dur.ac.uk/ias/fellows/cof...f1213/ramelli/

Quote:

that a theological interpretation might be that God was doing the forcing, but God is not in the phrase with the forcing.

I wonder if you know what the term "theological passive" means and what those who use it are claiming.

Quote:

The key point throughout the article is that the evidence indicates that, whatever the verb βιάζεται translates to, it is consistent to translate it in a passive and not an active sense.

Looking through the list of comparative translations below, I can only see one passive translation, and the rest all active. So I think the author may be making a valid point about the appropriateness of using the passive sense.

Cyril of Alexandria's exegesis of Luke 16:16

The author presents this (p.754):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyril of Alexandria's exegesis of Luke 16:16

Since the kingdom of heaven is the faith in Christ, it began with John the Bap tist's announcement, who showed that the announced one would lead to the Kingdom through baptism.

Those who are forced to enter the kingdom of heaven are those who detach themselves from the old and trivial custom of idolatry and those who pay no attention to the mere literal meaning, but they are dragged to the other side with violence, so to say, by the faith in Christ.

The issue is not what Cyril made of it, but what Luke meant and whether all of the translations you adduce have got it right. So proof-texting is irrelevant and entirely misses the point of the article's argument.

You are once again speaking out of ignorance.

Jeffrey

Clivedurdle · 04-24-2013, 05:36 AM

http://liberatenet.org/2012/09/14/th...righteousness/

Quote:

“This is our theology, by which we teach a precise distinction between these two kinds of righteousness, the active and the passive” (Martin Luther, Lectures on Galatians 1535). There are “two kinds of righteousness” because human beings live in two kinds of relationships: 1) creature with Creator and 2) creature with creature. Before God (coram Deo), people are passive, receiving righteousness by grace through faith on account of Christ (Rom 3:21-24; 5:17; 10:6; Phil 3:9; cf. Rom 3:28; Gal 2:16). Before the world (coram mundo), people are active, serving their neighbor in love (Rom 13:8-19; Gal 5:13-14). This distinction is essential because, as Luther put it, it ensures that “morality and faith, works and grace … are not confused. Both are necessary, but both must be kept within their limits” (Lectures on Galatians 1535). To be human is to be two-dimensional: passive (i.e. receptive) before God and active (i.e. loving) before the world.

If we are discussing this, is there a problem with saying so? And what relationship does this have to the translation of this verse?

Clivedurdle · 04-24-2013, 05:41 AM

And interestingly, my theological background would question this! As a son of God and an heir of salvation and the new heaven and earth, a member of the bride of Christ where one is equal in Christ, one is not passive towards God!

Probably to do with my sympathy for the levellers and when Adam delved and Eve span who was then the gentleman, the story of Jacob wrestling with God and yes sir no sir three bags full sir!

Luther is showing clear Catholic tendencies in that argument!

mountainman · 04-25-2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Luke 16:16: The Good News of God's Kingdom Is Proclaimed and Everyone Is Forced into It by Ilaria L. E. Ramelli, Journal of Biblical Literature , Vol. 127, No. 4 (Winter, 2008), pp. 737-758.

Ramelli argues for the above translation of Luke 16:16.

This essentially supports conversion to Christianity by the sword.

Please discuss.

Luke 16:16

Geza Vermes, The authentic Gospels of Jesus, Penguin Books,
ISBN 139780141003603.Page 128

Quote:

Matt 13.33; Luke 13.20-21 .These verses of Matthew and Luke are announcing the imperceptible gestation before the manifestation of the Kingdom of God. This concept of the peaceful arrival of the Kingdom stands against another, less common representation in which it bursts violently into the world.[matt 11.11-12;luke 16.16)

The NT is inviting the reader to consider whether any profound change in the way a given society is organized would be accessible without upsetting anybody and hence peaceful?

Well when the conversion of the Roman Empire to the centralised monotheistic state Christian cult occurred it was certainly not peaceful. It appeared to be a top-down projection of political power directed against all other religious cults and was characterised then and ever since by heresiological operatives.

Jesus said he was bringing a sword to the party, and if everyone who heard the good news of the New God's Roman Kingdom were forced into it by the sword, then Jesus meant business by bringing the sword to the party.

And the new law was quite simple:

"Religious privileges are reserved for Christians"

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

mountainman · 04-25-2013, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

I wonder if you know what the term "theological passive" means and what those who use it are claiming.

The key point relates to the use of the active and passive sense and the difference between "everyone forces their way into God's Kingdom" as contrasted to "everyone is being forced into God's Kingdom".

Quote:

The issue is ....... what Luke meant and whether all of the translations you adduce have got it right. So proof-texting is irrelevant and entirely misses the point of the article's argument.

According to the author, most of the translations in use yesterday and today have got it wrong because they have used the active and not the passive tense.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Jeffrey Gibson · 04-25-2013, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

I wonder if you know what the term "theological passive" means and what those who use it are claiming.

The key point relates to the use of the active and passive sense and the difference between "everyone forces their way into God's Kingdom" as contrasted to "everyone is being forced into God's Kingdom".

So the answer is no. Thanks for confirming what I thought to be the case.

Jeffrey

04-23-2013, 03:35 PM	#1
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Luke 16:16: The Good News of God's Kingdom Is Proclaimed & Everyone Is Forced into it Luke 16:16: The Good News of God's Kingdom Is Proclaimed and Everyone Is Forced into It by Ilaria L. E. Ramelli, Journal of Biblical Literature , Vol. 127, No. 4 (Winter, 2008), pp. 737-758. Ramelli argues for the above translation of Luke 16:16. This essentially supports conversion to Christianity by the sword. Please discuss. εὐδαιμονία \| eudaimonia

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04-24-2013, 05:41 AM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And interestingly, my theological background would question this! As a son of God and an heir of salvation and the new heaven and earth, a member of the bride of Christ where one is equal in Christ, one is not passive towards God! Probably to do with my sympathy for the levellers and when Adam delved and Eve span who was then the gentleman, the story of Jacob wrestling with God and yes sir no sir three bags full sir! Luther is showing clear Catholic tendencies in that argument!

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