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Old 08-23-2003, 01:16 PM   #11
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Default Re: Response from a minister about jesus being 2000 years late.

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Originally posted by mark9950
[B]You probably all know all the verses that refer to jesus as being 2000 years late.

So I have a habit of asking a minister that question so he could give me a response.Out of curiousity.
I think the gospel references to the "End" should also be looked at in chronological order with Paul's being the oldest references:


Early Christian Writings on the "IMMEDIACY" of Jesus' Return
References in the Epistles in the New Testament by St. Paul

In Paul's earliest letters, Paul writes how the Day of Judgment of the "Lord is at hand"! (Phil 4:5,1 Cor. 16:22). In Romans 13:9-11, Paul urged his congregation to obey the commandments, "...for now is our SALVATION nearer than when we believed."

Due to this belief, Paul even recommended that his community give up sexual activity, saying for example:

"The time we live in will not last long. While it lasts, married men
should be as if they had no wives;...For the whole frame of this world is passing away." (1 Cor. 7:29-31)

As for those Christians who had become sickly and even died, Paul at first declared that this might have been caused by those who were "unworthy" to participate in the powerful enactment of the Last Supper (Eucharist):

"For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh
damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For
this cause, many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (I Corinthians 11:27-32)

As more Christians began dying off, people began wondering whether or not their dead friends and family would be able to participate with the LIVING in the New Age to be initiated by Jesus' Second Coming. Paul wrote to the Thessalonian congregations on this issue, assuring them that the dead would
be resurrected during the Second Coming:

"we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:15)

It is interesting to note Paul's use of the word "we" in the passage above.--He obviously expected to be one of those who would still be alive when Jesus returned. The dead would be resurrected, and all Christian souls would be transfigured into immortal beings, and taken up into Heaven.

As to why there were NO signs that the Second Coming was about to be initiated, Paul explained to his congregation that instead the time would come upon them suddenly "like a thief in the night":

"About dates and times we need not write to you, for you know perfectly well that the day of the lord comes like a thief in the night. While they are talking of peace and security all at once calamity comes in upon them, sudden as the pangs that come upon a woman with child." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3)

Gospel Writers Insist the "End" Will be Presaged by Great "Signs"

Later, gospel writers such as Mark would write that great "signs"
would presage the Second Coming. For example, Mark 13:21 quotes Jesus as prophesizing terrible times and the coming of false messiahs and imposters. Another sign would be the "abomination of desolation".

Possibly one reason, why the gospel writers differed with Paul
on this issue, is that during the times that THEY wrote--they were seeing terrible signs (which they hoped meant the Second Coming was around the corner FOR THEM!) For during and after the Jewish Revolt of 66-70 C.E.--these were indeed terrible times! The Temple was profaned and destroyed, and Christians had recently gone through the terrible persecutions of Nero.
The gospel writers were relying on texts for the sayings of Jesus that probably came from the early Jewish Christian communities in Palestine--and therefore shared their fellow Jews views of worldly current events.

Later Christian Explanations for Jesus' Delayed Return

Paul died in Rome, possibly during the reign of the Emperor Nero. As even more time passed, and it became obvious that most of the first generation Christians were dying off--the early Church found itself in the uncomfortable position of trying to explain WHY the coming of Christ had been inexplicably postponed.

One prominent Christian leader wrote an epistle--known to us as the second epistle of St. Peter--to help maintain the faith of the flock. According to the author, Jesus and the apostles had been aware that the Coming would be delayed, and had even warned:

"... that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after
their own lusts, and saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.'

The author continued that "the Lord is not slack concerning his
promise, and that:

"the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burnt up...Nevertheless, we according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

In one of the later gospel letters (which are believed to have been written after the death of Paul), we can see reference to where the author is urging calm, obviously from growing alarm that Jesus had not yet returned:

"Now brothers, about the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ and his gathering of us to himself, I beg you do not suddenly lose your heads and alarm yourselves ... [for] that day cannot come before the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form, the man doomed to perdition. He is the enemy. He rises in his pride against every god so called, every object of men's worship and even takes his seat in the temple of God." (2 Thess. 2:1-4)

Although 2 Thessalonians is ascribed to Paul, many scholars believe that it was written around 70 C.E. by some other author who was anxious to correct some of the "misconceptions" caused by the first letter to the Thessalonians.

That is, unlike other letters of Paul that stressed the immediacy of the Second Coming--this author states that the delay in Jesus' return can be explained by the dualistic forces of good and evil in the world. Or, in other words, "the final rebellion against God" must first take place before Judgment Day can come. (Note: Regarding his references to the "enemy" who would "take[] his seat in the temple of God", some scholars believe this passage could possibly have been describing the Roman emperor Vespasian (Nero's successor). Vespasian became emperor in 69 C.E. following the Roman victory over the Jewish Revolt. He re-instituted the cult of worshipping the emperors (including
himself), as gods!)

Gospel Predictions of the Second Coming

A literal reading of the gospel stories clearly shows that Jesus predicted he would return to end the present world order WITHIN THE LIFETIMES OF HIS current generation:

"...Take heed behold I have told you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ...

"Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." (Mark 13:23-30. See also Matthew 24:34, and Luke 21:32)

That Jesus would return during the current generation is also written down in Matthew 16:27-28:

"For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his
Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done. Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

During Jesus' questioning by the high priest (just prior to being turned over to the Romans and crucified), the following interchange is recorded by Mark between the high priest and Jesus:

"...Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? and Jesus said, I am: and ye
shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and
coming in the clouds of heaven."

If Jesus had stated that the high priest would "see" him on the right hand of God, we could surmise that Jesus was referring to that time after the high priest had died--when his spirit was facing "Judgment". However because of the action implied in the scene (ie the high priest was to "see" Jesus "coming in the clouds of heaven") this makes it sound as if it is again a reference to a physical "End" of the World.

Why was the Second Coming Postponed?

Christians, both then and now, have naturally been puzzled as to why Jesus decided to "postpone" the Coming of God during the lifetimes of his contemporaries. Indeed, the fact that Jesus appeared to have promised to return during his generation, is probably one of the most powerful arguments made by skeptics in their refutation of the authority of the gospels.

Obviously theologians and biblical scholars have been aware of these passages. The following examines some popular responses.

Was Jesus Referring to a SPIRITUAL (As opposed to Physical) Kingdom?

One possibility, (hinted at by Luke), is that Jesus was speaking of a SPIRITUAL kingdom of God, as opposed to a PHYSICAL End of the World: According to Luke 17:20-21:

" The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU." (emphasis mine on words "within you").

There is another verse, where Luke quotes Jesus as describing the Kingdom of Heaven along seemingly SPIRITUAL terms:

"Repent, for the Kingdom of God is AMONG you." [emphasis mine]

The advantage of this view is that because NO apocalypse is involved, this could explain why Jesus has not returned in roughly two thousand years! (Remember the earth was believed to be roughly four thousand years old, so by biblical standards another two thousand years represents a HUGE passage of time).

Still, there are problems with this view. For in other passages in
Luke, Jesus is shown urging his followers to go out and proclaim a kingdom of God on EARTH--and quickly, for there was NO time to loose. That is, in other verses, Luke's meaning seems clear that Jesus and his disciples WERE EXPECTING THE WORLD TO END SOON!

For example, note the following verses--also taken from the gospel of Luke:

* "And he [Jesus] said to all, 'If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it...truly, there are some standing here who will not taste of death before they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:23-4,27)

* As they were going down the road, Jesus approached one man, saying: 'Follow me.' But he said to him, 'Lord, let me first go and bury my father.' But he said to him, 'Leave the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.' Another said, 'I will follow you, Lord; but let me first say farewell to those at my home.; Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:59-62)

* "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple...whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple." (Luke 15:26,33)

* "Nevertheless, when the Son of man COMES, will he find faith on earth?" (Luke 18:8) (emphasis mine).

* "And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

"And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and treat glory. Now when these things begin to take place, look up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." (Luke 21:25-8)

Other Gospel References to a PHYSICAL End of the World Scene

Matthew and Mark also directly quote Jesus as referring to WHEN the Day of Judgment will occur--therefore specifically referring to some future PHYSICAL event:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36. See also Mark 8:11-12).

As we saw earlier, the gospels quote Jesus as depicting terrible events occurring (the light from the sun and the moon would darken, and the stars would fall from heaven, etc). This is clearly speaking of a real PHYSICAL event. And according to Matthew, Jesus appears to have emphasized that his words were to be taken literally and not figuratively:

*"Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matthew 24:35).

* "May thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done... as in Heaven [so] also on earth".

Looking closely at the sayings of Jesus regarding the Kingdom of God--although Jesus seems to indicate that sometimes the Kingdom of God iswithin (ie possibly spiritual), at other times the references are clearly to some future PHYSICAL event, such as when Jesus is quoted as saying:

* "the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel'" (Mark 1:15)

These terms "near" and "at hand" would clearly have been understood by Jesus' Jewish audience along the lines of Jewish apocalyptic traditions-- to be a belief in the inauguration of a new Jerusalem on earth!

If the End of the World is a PHYSICAL Event--Are There Other Reasons Why it Has Remained Unfulfilled for Roughly TWO THOUSAND YEARS?

If we come back to the view that the END OF THE WORLD is a real PHYSICAL EVENT as opposed to a spiritual state--the obvious question arises as to WHY it has taken so long to be fulfilled?

I. A famous passage in Matthew is often quoted in answer to this question:

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36 See also Mark 8:11-12). (Footnote: Sometimes 2 Peter 3:8 "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" is also quoted).

But of course, even if Jesus does not know the EXACT date and time of the Second Coming--doesn't it mean he was "mistaken" that the GENERAL timeframe was supposed to occur during his present generation? It is a fact that the early Christians would have been utterly shocked if they had known that the Second Coming would NOT have made an appearance after roughly TWO thousand years had elapsed.

Skeptics have responded that, since it is known that the gospels were written some thirty to eighty years AFTER the crucifixion of Jesus, that it would only have been natural for an apologetic reply to be "inserted" into the doctrine-- to explain why Jesus' return had not occurred as expected. (as noted in Section III, Chapter 2, it is a fact that verses in the New Testament HAVE been definitely tampered with.)

Religious scholars have brought up the excellent point though, that "IF" the gospel writers WERE written sometime AFTER the Jewish revolt--Why would the gospel writers also INCLUDE verses that clearly (and erroneously) state that Jesus would return during HIS current generation?' That is, surely--they would have just omitted these references!

There is, of course, one plausible answer to this. If the End of the World predictions were truly GENUINE sayings of Jesus--then they were probably KNOWN to the earliest Christian communities. And during the turbulent times while Christians were facing persecutions, no doubt these were some of the most popular and cherished sayings in the community-- giving hope to hang on during these dark periods. That is, the theme of the
world coming to an End was so ingrained within the hopes and aspirations of the community--that no one could change this, even if they wanted too--without great resistance by the current Christian community.

The hope for a new world appears in many ancient Christian writings. For example, a beautiful prayer appearing in the non canonical book TEACHING OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES, concludes with the words:

'Let grace come and this world pass away.'

According to this theory, the verses regarding the imminent return of Jesus would be too important and well known to be left out of the gospels. So to explain the delay, other verses were "added" by the gospel writers, according to their own theological views. (Thus, Matthew and Mark softened this impact by adding the verse which stated that only the Father knows the exact day and hour.)

II. There is another famous passage that is sometimes given as to why the Second Coming has been delayed for so long. According to the gospel of Matthew, Jesus declared that his disciples who are preaching the gospel in Israel and facing persecution for his name's sake will not:

"have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23)

It is based on this verse, that many Christian missions have been launched to mass convert the world. That is, if ALL the towns were converted, then this should "speed up" the arrival of Jesus' Second Coming.

Of course, based on this reasoning, it might take, say, another couple of thousand years, before the world is "ready" for the Second Coming...
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