Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-19-2012, 10:29 AM

The skeptics are dominating the news now:

Reality check on Jesus and his wife includes some amusing comments from Ben Witherington:

Quote:

Witherington said the text could be open to alternate interpretations. "In view of the largely ascetic character of Gnosticism, it is likely that we are dealing with the 'sister-wife' phenomenon, and the reference is to a strictly spiritual relationship, which is close but does not involve sexual intimacy," Witherington said.

During a follow-up phone call, he explained that "during the rise of the monastic movement, you had quite a lot of monk-type folks and evangelists who traveled in the company of a sister-wife." The fellow travelers looked after each other, but celibacy was part of the deal, he said.

"The other question about this is ... were these 'fractured fairy tales' that helped monks in the desert while away the time, or were they serious religious texts?" Witherington said.

The Atlantic entertainment blog points out that the canonical gospels continually refer to Jesus as the groom, with the church as his bride. (Witherington objects - a bride is not a wife ??)

CNN

Quote:

Wolf-Peter Funk, a noted Coptic linguist and co-director of the francophone project editing the Nag Hammadi Coptic library at Laval University in Quebec, said there were "thousands of scraps of papyrus where you find crazy things," and that many questions remain unanswered about the Harvard fragment.

stephan huller · 09-19-2012, 10:39 AM

The media love to create these little controversies don't they? It doesn't even pretend to have anything to do with a search for the truth. They are like little cockfights set up for public entertainment. I say give the people what they want - reestablish the blood spectacles of ancient Rome.

stephan huller · 09-19-2012, 12:30 PM

Ironically, I am corresponding with the producers of a major documentary being produced on this subject right now. Have been friendly with them before Discovery pulled the plug on a show about my article in the Journal of Coptic Studies. In any event, they were unaware of any controversy about authenticity. It's always good to be useful, or whatever it is that Thomas the Tank Engine says.

stephan huller · 09-19-2012, 12:39 PM

Alin was quoted on CTV today and this comment on his FB from another Coptic scholar:

Quote:

I saw it carefully, something wrong about the ink, the word tachime is darker then the rest of the manuscript, and to make it authentic, the darker ink was spread on some letters.!

stephan huller · 09-19-2012, 12:45 PM

Also this statement from the AP article I missed earlier today:

Quote:

Hany Sadak, the director general of the Coptic Museum in Cairo, said the fragment's existence was unknown to Egypt's antiquities authorities until news articles this week.

“I personally think, as a researcher, that the paper is not authentic because it was, if it had been in Egypt before, we would have known of it and we would have heard of it before it left Egypt,” he said.

stephan huller · 09-19-2012, 01:52 PM

I am getting the distinct feeling they bumped my documentary for this. Can't confirm it yet. But I remember they asked me what I thought of Karen King. This must have been presented to them a while back. I see they even have an actress playing Mary Magdala.

stephan huller · 09-19-2012, 02:14 PM

In any event, the bottom line is it is curious that she wouldn't have gotten the ink tested before the big show.

anethema · 09-19-2012, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The skeptics are dominating the news now:

Reality check on Jesus and his wife includes some amusing comments from Ben Witherington:

Quote:

Witherington said the text could be open to alternate interpretations. "In view of the largely ascetic character of Gnosticism, it is likely that we are dealing with the 'sister-wife' phenomenon, and the reference is to a strictly spiritual relationship, which is close but does not involve sexual intimacy," Witherington said.

During a follow-up phone call, he explained that "during the rise of the monastic movement, you had quite a lot of monk-type folks and evangelists who traveled in the company of a sister-wife." The fellow travelers looked after each other, but celibacy was part of the deal, he said.

"The other question about this is ... were these 'fractured fairy tales' that helped monks in the desert while away the time, or were they serious religious texts?" Witherington said.

The Atlantic entertainment blog points out that the canonical gospels continually refer to Jesus as the groom, with the church as his bride. (Witherington objects - a bride is not a wife ??)

CNN

Quote:

Wolf-Peter Funk, a noted Coptic linguist and co-director of the francophone project editing the Nag Hammadi Coptic library at Laval University in Quebec, said there were "thousands of scraps of papyrus where you find crazy things," and that many questions remain unanswered about the Harvard fragment.

thats rich! the first line of apologetics is man the barricades and haul out any ancient balderdash that the christian church pulled out of its arse. it reminds me of satan depositing ancient gods to confuse believers and question their faith. i cant wait for bill craigs take on it.:Cheeky:

stephan huller · 09-19-2012, 06:36 PM

More comments on Alin's FB page (which seems to be hub of expert opinion):

This from Dylan Burns - http://ku-dk.academia.edu/DylanBurns

Quote:

For those who care, my initial quibbles re: the so-called "Gospel of Jesus' Wife": 1. A second-century dating for the Greek Vorlage to the fragment is speculative; its reasoning is that, since people as early as the second century debated whether or not Jesus was married, this must come from a second-century text. That really just gives a terminus post quem (i.e. 100 CE). 2. Fourth-century manuscript? Carbon-dating and ink analysis aren't much good here. Fourth-century papyri are indistinguishable from, say, seventh-century papyri. I'm no paleographer, but to the best of my knowledge we have no distinct method of dating Coptic scribal hands until the medieval period. I.e., the MS could be a good deal later than stated here. 3. Wife? The Coptic word used is "s'hime," which can mean "wife," but also "woman," "girl," "female," etc. It has a very wide lexical valence, and the rest of the passage does not indicate that marriage (as much as gender) was the question at hand.

stephan huller · 09-19-2012, 06:39 PM

David Klotz: http://yale.academia.edu/DavidKlotz

Quote:

Christian, the article doesn't address why the ink preservation "would be extremely difficult to forge." It merely cites the personal observation of a colleague. I'm interested to see the results of the ink tests.

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09-19-2012, 10:39 AM	#42
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The media love to create these little controversies don't they? It doesn't even pretend to have anything to do with a search for the truth. They are like little cockfights set up for public entertainment. I say give the people what they want - reestablish the blood spectacles of ancient Rome.

09-19-2012, 12:30 PM	#43
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Ironically, I am corresponding with the producers of a major documentary being produced on this subject right now. Have been friendly with them before Discovery pulled the plug on a show about my article in the Journal of Coptic Studies. In any event, they were unaware of any controversy about authenticity. It's always good to be useful, or whatever it is that Thomas the Tank Engine says.

09-19-2012, 01:52 PM	#46
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I am getting the distinct feeling they bumped my documentary for this. Can't confirm it yet. But I remember they asked me what I thought of Karen King. This must have been presented to them a while back. I see they even have an actress playing Mary Magdala.

09-19-2012, 02:14 PM	#47
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	In any event, the bottom line is it is curious that she wouldn't have gotten the ink tested before the big show.

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