Freethought & Rationalism Archive

4 billion · 12-01-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

Neat thing about commercial apple orchards. If you looked at the roots of the trees you wouldn't know a damn thing about the apple on the tree. Grafting means the root that would produce MacIntosh's now supports a tree that produces Golden Delicious or Cortland's. You'd know it was an apple tree but I feel sorry for the person who passes up a Royal Gala or Ambrosia because, well, it's an apple.

The root of all denominations is the Bible. Each Golden Delicious root system finds its way through the soil in different ways, this is all denominations are, the same type of tree, each with their own network of roots, but containing the same DNA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishboneDawn

Anyhow, you're ascribing intent and design to the fact that there are different denominations and I doubt you could even begin to support that assertion. I don't think you've thought about supportng it because it works for you. It neatly allows you to generalize and excuses you from looking into what you're railing against. I think it's a simplistic and possibly dishonest way of approaching an issue but I understand you may not share that view.

I look at Christianity as the most successfull (aggresive) tribe/ideology in the brief history of Humanity.

Anat · 12-01-2006, 07:13 PM

And since when is being a good father in our modern sense a requirement of the biblical God? This is the God that sentences children to death for being drunkards and gluttons.

4 billion · 12-01-2006, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Slavery isn't a good thing in the bible. Slavery is forbidden among the Jews.

Then why is there so much instruction on what one does with slaves?

Anat · 12-01-2006, 11:00 PM

Slavery is not forbidden among Jews. There are explicit laws regarding one's Hebrew slave and one's foreign slave. In later generations (Talmudic times) enslavement of Jews by Jews was looked down on - not for the slave owner but for the slave. IOW it was considered a sign of moral degeneracy that one would want to sell oneself into slavery - since all Jews are already slaves of God a Jew selling himself into slavery would thus become the slave of a slave. It was recommended that as long one owns a pair of sandals one should refrain from selling oneself. In the Torah one can find the beginnings of such an attitude when dealing with the Hebrew slave who refuses to be freed on the 7th year of servitude or on the Jubilee.

The Evil One · 12-02-2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

There you go again. You have a tin ear. Here let me show you how wrong you are with a NT passage:

Erm, the milieu and textual origin of the NT is *utterly different* to that of the OT. The bible isn't a single text, as someone, I think anat, had only just got through telling you. In any case:

Quote:

"That is enough," he replied.

is not exactly the extravagant blessing that God heaps on Abe. We must also note that God actually does what he promises Abe in the blessing: i.e. makes him the father of a glorious and mighty nation (as far as the authors are concerned).

As regards the number of sons that Abraham had. You argue that

Quote:

Abraham has utterly and completely forgotten about Ishmael. He's just not a very good father. He forgets one son (sending him out to what appears to be certain death),

while ignoring the fact that it was Sarah who wanted him to do it and Abe only complied after GOD INSTRUCTED HIM TO!

As for Ishmael being sent to certain death, he already had a guarantee from God that that wouldn't happen:

Quote:

And God said: 'Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee; behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

So far from the feckless father you have read into the text, Abe is worried about Ismael, doesn't want him sent away, consults God, and gets the go-ahead to send him away combined with a promise of a golden future for the lad. I am driven to wonder whether you have actually ever read Genesis.

Quote:

ABRAHAM HAS ANOTHER SON!. So for God to ignore this fact in the Binding episode suggests that we need to ask why.

Yes, we do. So far we have three answers.

1) Mine. It is an artefact of a redaction that merged together texts that didn't include Ishmael and texts that did.

2) Anat's. Ishmael doesn't count because Abe (at the direct command of God) has sent him away, thus excluding him form being an heir to the line of succession.

3) Yours. Abe is such a bad father he has completely forgotten about the existence of Ishmael and god, rather than seek to remind him, is "going along" with Abe's fault in this respect. (at least, that's what I assume your argument is; you've not stated it clearly).

your explanation, however, runs contra to everything the text says about the sending-away of Ishmael, contra to the universal view of Abe as a great and praiseworthy man, and imports a view of God's character that cannot be found in the OT but has to be retrojected onto it from Christian theology.

Quote:

But they are also redacted, and the redactor attempted to have some unified message.

This is your answer to the notion that redaction can introduce problems. That a redactor can have an agenda is certainly true. But the redactors typically had substantial reverence for the texts they were redacting and didn't change them, or leave bits out, where doing so could have made the text substanitally more coherent and unified. Example: the flood myth, which contradicts itself line by line, could have been made coherent if the redactor could have brought himself to leave out elements from one of the two texts he was merging. That he apparently couldn't, and was willing to produce the text we have today, tells us a lot about his attitude to those texts. In other words, my stance is that if the redactor was willing to have the Flood last for both 40 days and 150 days, then we have to assume he would also be willing to let abraham have both 1 and 2 sons.

Quote:

Quote:
Will you please stop retrojecting. The OT doesn't consider slavery bad, has no concept of "sex slave", and has a concept of "rape" vastly different from what we understand by that term today.

There you go again. If it's in the bible, then the authors must think it's "good."

I said they "don't consider it bad" ie don't condemn it. I invite you to find any evidence of the institution of slavery as an institution being condemned in the OT. You will find bemoanings of the enslavement of the the authors' in-group, e.g. in exodus, but no evidence of condemnation of slavery in general. The existence of a class of slaves or equivalent owned or downtrodden people has been universally accepted as the natural way of things by every society ever up until about the 1700s.

I also invite you to find, in the OT, any mention of the conept of a "sex slave" or any form of words that might be taken as meaning that. A neutral, praising or disparaging reference will do.

I also invite you to find any reference to rape in the OT that might conceivably cover what a king does with his concubines.

Quote:

Slavery isn't a good thing in the bible. Slavery is forbidden among the Jews.

Anat has covered this. In a word, bollocks. Again I am driven to wonder if you have actually read the Bible.

As for Solomon. You say that his conversation with God was "just a dream", ignoring the fact that ancient mythology and the Bible in particular is replete with people talking to God (s) in their dreams. The concept of "just a dream" is not one that would have registered for the ancients. In this specific case, I would point out that God did indeed make Solomon wise (see Anat's evidence for this), rich and powerful -- as promised in the dream. And note God's last words in the dream:

Quote:

And if you walk in my ways and obey my statutes and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life

And the warning is repeated:

Quote:

The LORD said to him:
"I have heard the prayer and plea you have made before me; I have consecrated this temple, which you have built, by putting my Name there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.
4 "As for you, if you walk before me in integrity of heart and uprightness, as David your father did, and do all I command and observe my decrees and laws, 5 I will establish your royal throne over Israel forever, as I promised David your father when I said, 'You shall never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.'

6 "But if you or your sons turn away from me and do not observe the commands and decrees I have given you and go off to serve other gods and worship them, 7 then I will cut off Israel from the land I have given them and will reject this temple I have consecrated for my Name. Israel will then become a byword and an object of ridicule among all peoples.

In other words, as Anat says, it is absolutely necessary to the narrative that Solomon should fail God in the end, becuase if he doesn't there is no explanation for the Davidic kingdom split, and, ultimately, how Judah came to be conquered.

Well, he did give Solomon a long life, but then:

Quote:

As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.

So in other words the text is supportive of the notion that solomon's dream is to be considered as genuine words from God. Not to mention the prelude to that dream:

Quote:

At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon during the night in a dream

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

Solomon was never wise

You're really going to make me do it, aren't you. You're going to make me go through the entire book of Kings.

-sigh-.

Quote:

When all Israel heard the verdict the king had given, they held the king in awe, because they saw that he had wisdom from God to administer justice.

Quote:

God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. 30 Solomon's wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the men of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt. 31 He was wiser than any other man, including Ethan the Ezrahite—wiser than Heman, Calcol and Darda, the sons of Mahol. And his fame spread to all the surrounding nations. 32 He spoke three thousand proverbs and his songs numbered a thousand and five. 33 He described plant life, from the cedar of Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of walls. He also taught about animals and birds, reptiles and fish. 34 Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon's wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.

Quote:

When Hiram heard Solomon's message, he was greatly pleased and said, "Praise be to the LORD today, for he has given David a wise son to rule over this great nation."

Quote:

The LORD gave Solomon wisdom, just as he had promised him. There were peaceful relations between Hiram and Solomon, and the two of them made a treaty.

Note in this instance the act being praised the establishment of peace and trade relations with the King of Tyre. I think that counts as pretty wise.

Quote:

1 When the queen of Sheba heard about the fame of Solomon and his relation to the name of the LORD, she came to test him with hard questions. 2 Arriving at Jerusalem with a very great caravan—with camels carrying spices, large quantities of gold, and precious stones—she came to Solomon and talked with him about all that she had on her mind. 3 Solomon answered all her questions; nothing was too hard for the king to explain to her. 4 When the queen of Sheba saw all the wisdom of Solomon and the palace he had built, 5 the food on his table, the seating of his officials, the attending servants in their robes, his cupbearers, and the burnt offerings he made at [a] the temple of the LORD, she was overwhelmed. 6 She said to the king, "The report I heard in my own country about your achievements and your wisdom is true. 7 But I did not believe these things until I came and saw with my own eyes. Indeed, not even half was told me; in wisdom and wealth you have far exceeded the report I heard. 8 How happy your men must be! How happy your officials, who continually stand before you and hear your wisdom!

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23 King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth. 24 The whole world sought audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom God had put in his heart.

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As for the other events of Solomon's reign—all he did and the wisdom he displayed—are they not written in the book of the annals of Solomon?

In fact, the only topic more prominent in that part of 1 Kings than Solomon's wisdom is the gloriousness of the temple he built.

Right, that's that.

Gamera · 12-04-2006, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 billion

Then why is there so much instruction on what one does with slaves?

Because jews could own nonjewish slaves. But not jewish slaves.

Leviticus 25:42
Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.

Deuteronomy 24:7
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.

Gamera · 12-04-2006, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Slavery is not forbidden among Jews. There are explicit laws regarding one's Hebrew slave and one's foreign slave. In later generations (Talmudic times) enslavement of Jews by Jews was looked down on - not for the slave owner but for the slave. IOW it was considered a sign of moral degeneracy that one would want to sell oneself into slavery - since all Jews are already slaves of God a Jew selling himself into slavery would thus become the slave of a slave. It was recommended that as long one owns a pair of sandals one should refrain from selling oneself. In the Torah one can find the beginnings of such an attitude when dealing with the Hebrew slave who refuses to be freed on the 7th year of servitude or on the Jubilee.

I think this proves your wrong. It couldn't be any more specific. A jew could not own a jewish slave, or even sell one to a nonjew. Indeed, it was a capital crime to do so!

Leviticus 25:42
Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.

Deuteronomy 24:7
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.

Gamera · 12-04-2006, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Evil One

Erm, the milieu and textual origin of the NT is *utterly different* to that of the OT. The bible isn't a single text, as someone, I think anat, had only just got through telling you. In any case:

is not exactly the extravagant blessing that God heaps on Abe. We must also note that God actually does what he promises Abe in the blessing: i.e. makes him the father of a glorious and mighty nation (as far as the authors are concerned).

As regards the number of sons that Abraham had. You argue that

while ignoring the fact that it was Sarah who wanted him to do it and Abe only complied after GOD INSTRUCTED HIM TO!

As for Ishmael being sent to certain death, he already had a guarantee from God that that wouldn't happen:

So far from the feckless father you have read into the text, Abe is worried about Ismael, doesn't want him sent away, consults God, and gets the go-ahead to send him away combined with a promise of a golden future for the lad. I am driven to wonder whether you have actually ever read Genesis.

Yes, we do. So far we have three answers.

1) Mine. It is an artefact of a redaction that merged together texts that didn't include Ishmael and texts that did.

2) Anat's. Ishmael doesn't count because Abe (at the direct command of God) has sent him away, thus excluding him form being an heir to the line of succession.

3) Yours. Abe is such a bad father he has completely forgotten about the existence of Ishmael and god, rather than seek to remind him, is "going along" with Abe's fault in this respect. (at least, that's what I assume your argument is; you've not stated it clearly).

your explanation, however, runs contra to everything the text says about the sending-away of Ishmael, contra to the universal view of Abe as a great and praiseworthy man, and imports a view of God's character that cannot be found in the OT but has to be retrojected onto it from Christian theology.

This is your answer to the notion that redaction can introduce problems. That a redactor can have an agenda is certainly true. But the redactors typically had substantial reverence for the texts they were redacting and didn't change them, or leave bits out, where doing so could have made the text substanitally more coherent and unified. Example: the flood myth, which contradicts itself line by line, could have been made coherent if the redactor could have brought himself to leave out elements from one of the two texts he was merging. That he apparently couldn't, and was willing to produce the text we have today, tells us a lot about his attitude to those texts. In other words, my stance is that if the redactor was willing to have the Flood last for both 40 days and 150 days, then we have to assume he would also be willing to let abraham have both 1 and 2 sons.

I said they "don't consider it bad" ie don't condemn it. I invite you to find any evidence of the institution of slavery as an institution being condemned in the OT. You will find bemoanings of the enslavement of the the authors' in-group, e.g. in exodus, but no evidence of condemnation of slavery in general. The existence of a class of slaves or equivalent owned or downtrodden people has been universally accepted as the natural way of things by every society ever up until about the 1700s.

I also invite you to find, in the OT, any mention of the conept of a "sex slave" or any form of words that might be taken as meaning that. A neutral, praising or disparaging reference will do.

I also invite you to find any reference to rape in the OT that might conceivably cover what a king does with his concubines.

Anat has covered this. In a word, bollocks. Again I am driven to wonder if you have actually read the Bible.

As for Solomon. You say that his conversation with God was "just a dream", ignoring the fact that ancient mythology and the Bible in particular is replete with people talking to God (s) in their dreams. The concept of "just a dream" is not one that would have registered for the ancients. In this specific case, I would point out that God did indeed make Solomon wise (see Anat's evidence for this), rich and powerful -- as promised in the dream. And note God's last words in the dream:

And the warning is repeated:

In other words, as Anat says, it is absolutely necessary to the narrative that Solomon should fail God in the end, becuase if he doesn't there is no explanation for the Davidic kingdom split, and, ultimately, how Judah came to be conquered.

Well, he did give Solomon a long life, but then:

So in other words the text is supportive of the notion that solomon's dream is to be considered as genuine words from God. Not to mention the prelude to that dream:

You're really going to make me do it, aren't you. You're going to make me go through the entire book of Kings.

-sigh-.

Note in this instance the act being praised the establishment of peace and trade relations with the King of Tyre. I think that counts as pretty wise.

In fact, the only topic more prominent in that part of 1 Kings than Solomon's wisdom is the gloriousness of the temple he built.

Right, that's that.

But he wasn't wise. Solomon procured a bunch of foreign concubines, who led him around by the nose and had him worshipping Astarte or whomever.

See the irony. The wisest man of his time, who was even given wisdom directly from God, was a fool.

You keep reading half a text and not the full text, missing the point entirely.

1 Kings 11
Solomon's Wives
1 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter—Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, "You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods." Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech [a] the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

7 On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.

This doesn't sound wise to me.

Anat · 12-04-2006, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

I think this proves your wrong. It couldn't be any more specific. A jew could not own a jewish slave, or even sell one to a nonjew. Indeed, it was a capital crime to do so!

Oh yeah?
See Exodus 21:2-6:
"If thou buy a Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve; and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he come in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he be married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master give him a wife, and she bear him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant shall plainly say: I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free; then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever."

Anat · 12-04-2006, 09:22 PM

It is forbidden to force a fellow Jew into slavery by kidnapping, but a Jew can sell himself into slavery (for example because he is in economical need). Also, as you can see from the Exodus quote, a Jewish child can be born into slavery.

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12-01-2006, 07:13 PM	#142
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	And since when is being a good father in our modern sense a requirement of the biblical God? This is the God that sentences children to death for being drunkards and gluttons.

12-01-2006, 11:00 PM	#144
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Slavery is not forbidden among Jews. There are explicit laws regarding one's Hebrew slave and one's foreign slave. In later generations (Talmudic times) enslavement of Jews by Jews was looked down on - not for the slave owner but for the slave. IOW it was considered a sign of moral degeneracy that one would want to sell oneself into slavery - since all Jews are already slaves of God a Jew selling himself into slavery would thus become the slave of a slave. It was recommended that as long one owns a pair of sandals one should refrain from selling oneself. In the Torah one can find the beginnings of such an attitude when dealing with the Hebrew slave who refuses to be freed on the 7th year of servitude or on the Jubilee.

12-04-2006, 09:22 PM	#150
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	It is forbidden to force a fellow Jew into slavery by kidnapping, but a Jew can sell himself into slavery (for example because he is in economical need). Also, as you can see from the Exodus quote, a Jewish child can be born into slavery.

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