Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 03-07-2013, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

it is almost certainly a collection of collated, edited stories.

I agree bud.

It does not mean it is devoid of evidence used to determine historical events, places and people.

MrMacSon · 03-07-2013, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Not my fault you wont accept the evidence everyone else does.

Paul is so multiply attested its not funny

You keep stating this, but provide nothing to substantiate these statements.

Pls read these -

The Authentic Epistles

Paul the Inventor?

Summary of Paul

Toto · 03-07-2013, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

We all know what it means. What attestation is there of any sort for Paul outside of Christian theological literature? None.

Not my fault you wont accept the evidence everyone else does.

Paul is so multiply attested its not funny

Exactly where? State your case.

outhouse · 03-07-2013, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Not my fault you wont accept the evidence everyone else does.

Paul is so multiply attested its not funny

You keep stating this, but provide nothing to substantiate these statements.

Pls read these -

The Authentic Epistles

Paul the Inventor?

Summary of Paul

Dude I was there earlier today.

Blogger garbage. He is uneducated on these topics.

outhouse · 03-07-2013, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Not my fault you wont accept the evidence everyone else does.

Paul is so multiply attested its not funny

Exactly where? State your case.

7 Pauline epistles

Acts even though much is not historical, its not devoid either.

and as OP states.

Episcula Apostolorum, 170's CE
Acts of the Apostles, ca 180 CE

Marcion and the Gnostics, Apostilicon 130's CE
Ignatians, Marcionite (or Appelean) version, approximately 160 CE
Polycarp, 160's CE
Pastoral Epistles, (by Polycarp?) 160's CE
1 Clement (Catholic redaction) 150-160's CE
2 Peter, 180-200 CE
Irenaeus, 180's CE
Ignatians (Catholic redaction), 170-180 CE
Pauline Epistles (Catholic redaction), 170-180 CE
Tertullian, Third century CE
Origen, Third century CE

outhouse · 03-07-2013, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

[ I have read and studied what remains of Justin Martyr' writing extensively, There is more than enough remaining, and what does, covers such a breadth of Christian material, that if Justin had been aware of any 'Paul', or of any 'Paul's' Gospel' or of 'Paul's' reported extensive missionary works among the Gentiles, there would have been no way for Justin to have avoided mentioning or addressing the teachings and works of this famous 'Paul' when discussing the matters he writes on.

Indeed, in many of the doctrinal matters that Justin's writings cover, the total lack of any reference to Paul and Paul's famous teachings on those very matters virtually shouts that neither Justin nor his contemporary readers had
any aquaintance at all with the 'Apostle' to the Gentiles named 'Paul'.

The evidence is that 'Paul' and all of the 'Pauline Epistles' were invented by Christian Church writers sometime after 150 CE
The evidence of Justin's work, as well as that of other contemporary writers, indicates that there never was any living 'Apostle Paul' in the 1st century, or known to anyone before 150 CE.

'Paul's ' theology is not that of Justin, and reflects the development of theological arguments and late developed church doctrinal positions, that were totally unknown to Justin and to the world of the early 1st century CE.

.

I want to point out that the presumed provenance of the epistle to the Romans is out of sync with the evidence.

Supposedly, we have the Apostle Paul ca. 58 CE writing to the Church in Rome, a church that is already familiar and in agreement with Pauline doctrine. As Van Manen noted, the presumed Christians who are the recepients of that letter must be Pauline Christinas who are fully aware of the nuances of Pauline doctrine. (Else the arguments "Paul" makes are indecipherable). Yet, we find as late as the middle of the second century the Roman church has scarcely any familiarity with Paul or his doctrines. Justin, his student Tatian, Papais and others had no information on Paul. What had happened to the illustious epistle and all the friends and supporters of Paul? Had they disappeared and left scarcely a trace in next generations? Had the epistle lain buried in the archives of the Roman church for nearly a century until it emerged again to the light of day --- in the possession of Marcion!??

There is something very wrong with the traditional dating of the Epistle to the Romans.

Jake Jones

Your ignoring what really happened.

You didnt have churches, you had houses and people around dinner tables at this time.

Paul didnt create these places or churches or bring the movement to them. They had their own beliefs and doctrine, Paul sent them letters trying to correct their version, to his own personally theology, that for the most part didnt always go his way.

The early churches into the second century viewed Paul as a Martyr, not a grand theologian

Toto · 03-07-2013, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Exactly where? State your case.

7 Pauline epistles

Circular reasoning, anyone? The question here is whether the letters are authentic.

Quote:

Acts even though much is not historical, its not devoid either.

How do you know there is any history in Acts?

Quote:

and as OP states.

Episcula Apostolorum, 170's CE
Acts of the Apostles, ca 180 CE

Marcion and the Gnostics, Apostilicon 130's CE
Ignatians, Marcionite (or Appelean) version, approximately 160 CE
Polycarp, 160's CE
Pastoral Epistles, (by Polycarp?) 160's CE
1 Clement (Catholic redaction) 150-160's CE
2 Peter, 180-200 CE
Irenaeus, 180's CE
Ignatians (Catholic redaction), 170-180 CE
Pauline Epistles (Catholic redaction), 170-180 CE
Tertullian, Third century CE
Origen, Third century CE

These are all much later and derivative.

So far, there is no direct attestation of Paul that does not depend on Christian theological writings, and there is nothing that can be dated to the first century outside of the questionable dating of the letters themselves, which is yet to be proven.

MrMacSon · 03-07-2013, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Exactly where? State your case.

7 Pauline epistles

...

the so-called "undisputed Pauline epistles" are disputed -

Quote:

The name "undisputed" epistles represents the traditional scholarly consensus asserting that Paul authored each letter. However, even the least disputed of letters, such as Galatians, have found critics.[11^*] Moreover, the unity of the letters is questioned by some scholars. First and Second Corinthians have garnered particular suspicion, with some scholars, among them Edgar Goodspeed and Norman Perrin, supposing one or both texts as we have them today are actually amalgamations of multiple individual letters. There remains considerable discussion as to the presence of possible significant interpolations. However, such textual corruption is difficult to detect and even more so to verify, leaving little agreement as to the extent of the epistles' integrity. See also Radical Criticism, which maintains that the external evidence for attributing any of the letters to Paul is so weak, that it should be considered that all the letters appearing in the Marcion canon were written in Paul's name by members of the Marcionite Church and were afterwards edited and adopted by the Catholic Church.

* for example, F. R. McGuire, even though otherwise critical scholars like A. Q. Morton saw this text as the benchmark for refuting Pauline authorship of most other epistles; see A. Q. Morton & J. McLeman: Paul, the Man and the Myth (1966).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors...puted_epistles

Quote:

The Dutch school of radical criticism started in 1878 with a publication by Allard Pierson, who denied Pauline authorship of Galatians. He was fiercely attacked by his colleague A. D. Loman, but two years later also Loman abandoned the historicity of Paul. Similarly, W.C. van Manen, who had written a doctoral thesis defending the authenticity of 1 Thessalonians, wrote in 1889 that he had come to the same conclusions as Loman. Also the philosopher G. J. P. J. Bolland was a part of this movement.

It is now richly documented in the RadikalKritik site managed by Dr. Hermann Detering, who is reviving the complete scholarship of Radical Criticism of the Dutch Radical School, with reviews of all its members and analyses of their works, including many articles in English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Criticism

outhouse · 03-07-2013, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

7 Pauline epistles

Circular reasoning, anyone? The question here is whether the letters are authentic.

How do you know there is any history in Acts?

Quote:

and as OP states.

Episcula Apostolorum, 170's CE
Acts of the Apostles, ca 180 CE

Marcion and the Gnostics, Apostilicon 130's CE
Ignatians, Marcionite (or Appelean) version, approximately 160 CE
Polycarp, 160's CE
Pastoral Epistles, (by Polycarp?) 160's CE
1 Clement (Catholic redaction) 150-160's CE
2 Peter, 180-200 CE
Irenaeus, 180's CE
Ignatians (Catholic redaction), 170-180 CE
Pauline Epistles (Catholic redaction), 170-180 CE
Tertullian, Third century CE
Origen, Third century CE

These are all much later and derivative.

So far, there is no direct attestation of Paul that does not depend on Christian theological writings, and there is nothing that can be dated to the first century outside of the questionable dating of the letters themselves, which is yet to be proven.

Little is ever proven with ancient historisity, its based on probabilities.

And guess what, nothing in this thread has even began to dig anywhere near the field.

outhouse · 03-07-2013, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMacSon

the so-called "undisputed Pauline epistles" are disputed -

anyone can quote mine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors...puted_epistles

Only five letters are generally classified as “undisputed”, expressing contemporary scholarly near consensus that they are the work of Paul:

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