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Old 08-24-2004, 07:50 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Shameless Hussy
How so?
Because there are no temples in the New Jerusalem. The aim of religion (including and especially Judaism) is so we may find peace on earth and be set free from religious slavery and sin.

In this sense is religion an exercise that leads us into slavery and sin so it may convict us as sinner (which is the purpose of the law) and lead us to redemption and total freedom in the end.
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Old 08-24-2004, 08:14 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Amaleq13
you would probably find Elaine Pagels' book Beyond Belief of some interest.
Thanks for the recommendation. I visited Barnes & Noble to see if they had it, but alas, the only place I can find it is on Amazon. In the meantime, could someone recommend any online texts that pertain to this subject? I'd really appreciate anything that details specific dates/quotes, as I'm getting extremely sick of hearing Gnostic sympathizers say "Gnosticism was part of early Christianity because X" and Christians claiming "Christianity most certainly never accepted Gnosticism because Y." Well, only either one or the other can be right!
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Originally Posted by UglyManOnCampus
A funny thing is when some apologist reads from OT for messianic "prophesy" and then says something like "the prophet X now jumps from first coming to second coming of Christ without mentioning a gap." Well duh!
And most evangelicals aren't even able to agree on when/if the second coming already happened.
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Originally Posted by Chili
In this sense is religion an exercise that leads us into slavery and sin so it may convict us as sinner (which is the purpose of the law) and lead us to redemption and total freedom in the end.
So the purpose of religion is to a) create a new law, so that it can b) tell us we can never follow this law it invented for us, but c) if we join the religion, we don't have to follow the law it invented? Sounds flimsy to me.
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Originally Posted by Shameless Hussy
1) Build the final, permanent Temple
2) Usher in an era of world peace
3) Be descended from King David (descended in the genetic sense, no virgins, no supernatural stuff)
4) Be a Jewish prophet
5) Bring all the Jews to Israel
6) Cause all the Jews to observe the Torah "properly".
I won't ask you to scour the entirety of the Tanakh just for me, but could you name some specific passages?

Thanks all for bothering to post well thought out responses to a noob!
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Old 08-24-2004, 08:28 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Extrapolation
So the purpose of religion is to a) create a new law, so that it can b) tell us we can never follow this law it invented for us, but c) if we join the religion, we don't have to follow the law it invented? Sounds flimsy to me.
Ah, but the preacher speaks with earnesty and is convinced that the flock must be herded and protected from all evil. Would this be to estabilish a stream of consciousness against which salvation may be found? and would this be for those who feel lost in the flock?
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Old 08-24-2004, 09:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extrapolation
I won't ask you to scour the entirety of the Tanakh just for me, but could you name some specific passages?
From one noob to another...

Here are some of the major objections, complete with OT references for your perusal, in a nutshell:
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-j...sus-index.html

And here is another explanation, again with references:
http://www.aish.com/rabbi/ATR_browse...=tqak&offset=2

I was once given a complete list of the things Jesus didn't fulfill, by a rabbi. If I can dig it up, I'll post it here for you.
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Old 08-24-2004, 09:35 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Chili
Because there are no temples in the New Jerusalem.
Well, considering that one of the key fulfillments of Jewish messianic prophecy is that he'll rebuild the Great Temple... I'd say there'll be at least one HECK of a temple!

Quote:
The aim of religion (including and especially Judaism) is so we may find peace on earth and be set free from religious slavery and sin.
Okay. Not sure what you mean by religious slavery. Anyway, how will Judaism be rendered "redundant" by the arrival of their Messiah? He's not supposed to overthrow Jewish law, you know.
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Old 08-24-2004, 11:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extrapolation
I'd really appreciate anything that details specific dates/quotes, as I'm getting extremely sick of hearing Gnostic sympathizers say "Gnosticism was part of early Christianity because X" and Christians claiming "Christianity most certainly never accepted Gnosticism because Y." Well, only either one or the other can be right!
Unfortunately, it isn't that easy. Whether one or the other is correct kind of depends on what is meant by "Christianity".

The groups who were eventually called "heretics" and "gnostics" certainly were part of the same general early religious movement but only because nobody had created a specific and exclusive definition of "Christianity" yet.

Once certain beliefs were identified as "orthodox" and all others "heresy", and the "orthodox" folks declared their beliefs were the only true Christianity, the "gnostics" were no longer part of it by the new definition.

Pagels focuses on Irenaeus as a central figure in the above process so you might want to read through his arguments Against Heresies at Peter Kirby's website.
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Old 08-25-2004, 06:00 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Shameless Hussy
Okay. Not sure what you mean by religious slavery. Anyway, how will Judaism be rendered "redundant" by the arrival of their Messiah? He's not supposed to overthrow Jewish law, you know.
. . . but that is why there will never be such a Messiah. Their Messiah, like our Christ identity, must come on a personal basis and the new Temple will be a new mind that will transform the entire body (mind is in charge of the body).

The old Jerusalem is the old mind that is bound in slavery and sin while the new mind will be set free from slavery and sin. Therefore "it was for liberty that Christ freed us. So stand firm, and do not take upon yourself the yoke of slavery a second time" (Gal.5:1).

This also means that the prophesy was never meant to be a literal event that would bring peace to the entire flock at once.

To fulfill the law is to find agreement with it as the effective agent that leads to salvation = knowledge frees.
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Old 08-25-2004, 06:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Amaleq13
The groups who were eventually called "heretics" and "gnostics" certainly were part of the same general early religious movement but only because nobody had created a specific and exclusive definition of "Christianity" yet.
Christians are gnostic but they can not belong to any religion because the gnostic mind is the end of religion. The problem is that self proclaimed Christians sought their righteousness in the observance of the law and their faith in Jesus and that is a contradiction in itself. That is why there cannot be such a thing as a Christian religion and those who think there is will try to form their own religion and scatter the flock and/or fornicate the virgin sheep whenever they get a change.
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:38 AM   #19
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With regard to the OP's #2, this is a classic text:

Bauer's Orthodoxy and Heresy

Of course, this work hasn't escaped scholarly criticism, but I'm not aware of those critics being reproduced online. It did also win many supporters.

best,
Peter Kirby
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