Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Roger Pearse · 04-16-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

I'll scan it and email it to you tomorrow, Roger.

Very kind - thanks!

Quote:

I also have a request of my own. Does anyone have easy access to Cumont? I need to check a citation given as "Cumont II p. 179 no. 584, note," which I assume is to the second volume of Textes et Monuments Figures Relatifs aux Mysteres de Mithra. It should be an explanation/critique of CIL 6.736.

It's on archive.org here.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

God Fearing Atheist · 04-17-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It's on archive.org here.

Sweeeeeet, thanks.

Now another request. Any French and/or Latin speakers want to be a super pal and translate?

Latin:

Quote:

and

Quote:

Absolvit | K(alendis) mart(iis) | Agria Ceresi pa(ter) | et pont(ifex) s(a)c(ris) [f]ac(iundis?) | dei magni

French:

Quote:

La fausseté de ce monument, déjà soupçonnée par Henzen (note du Corpus) a été démontrée par M. Lebégue (Revue archeol., 1889 p. 64 suiv.). Elle ne fait pour moi aucun doute. L'inscription est imitée de CIL, VI, 510 Dis magnis -- taurobolio criubolioque in aeternum renatus.-- Avec ce texte tombe la seule preuve, que l'on pouvait invoquer de l'adoption du taurobole dans les mystères de Mitlira (Lisez CIL, VI, 506 in-trumenta.. cultus phrygii [?] au lieu de mithriaci). C'est pourquoi j'ai passé sous silence de ce recueil, toutes les inscriptions tauroboliques, que Fabri (I. c.) cite encore dans sa liste -- au moins en partie.

Roger Pearse · 04-17-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

Quote:

Deo magno Mithrae pollenti consenti Lari santo suo M. Philonius Philomuses Eugenianus delibutus sacratissimis misteriis per omnia probatissimus qui et arcanis perfusionibus in aternum renatus taurobolium crioboliumque fecit et bucranium signavit? Tatiano et Simacho consulibus

"To the great god Mithras, with the agreement of the powerful Lares, for his health, M. Philonius Philomuses Eugenianus did this (fecit), having been anointed in the most sacred mysteries, through it all most worthy (?), who also in the secret bloodshed reborn into the eternal Taurobolium and Criobolium, and sealed the bull-head on the altar (bucranium). Tatian and Symmachus being consuls."

Quote:

Absolvit | K(alendis) mart(iis) | Agria Ceresi pa(ter) | et pont(ifex) s(a)c(ris) [f]ac(iundis?) | dei magni

"Paid off on the kalends of March, when Agria Ceresius was Father and pontiff of the holy things that must be done for the great god."

The reference is to completing a vow.

Quote:

La fausseté de ce monument, déjà soupçonnée par Henzen (note du Corpus) a été démontrée par M. Lebégue (Revue archeol., 1889 p. 64 suiv.). Elle ne fait pour moi aucun doute. L'inscription est imitée de CIL, VI, 510 Dis magnis -- taurobolio criubolioque in aeternum renatus.-- Avec ce texte tombe la seule preuve, que l'on pouvait invoquer de l'adoption du taurobole dans les mystères de Mitlira (Lisez CIL, VI, 506 in-trumenta.. cultus phrygii [?] au lieu de mithriaci). C'est pourquoi j'ai passé sous silence de ce recueil, toutes les inscriptions tauroboliques, que Fabri (I. c.) cite encore dans sa liste -- au moins en partie.

Machine translators make quite a good fist of French; but here you are:

"The falsity of this monument, already suspected by Henzen (in a note on the Corpus) was demonstrated by Lebégue (Revue archeol., 1889 p. 64 ff.). For me there is no doubt. The inscription is imitated from CIL, VI, 510 Dis magnis -- taurobolio criubolioque in aeternum renatus -- If this text is fake, the sole proof of the adoption of the taurobolium in the mysteries of Mithra likewise falls (Reading CIL, VI, 506 as instrumenta.. cultus phrygii [?] instead of mithriaci). This is why in this collection I have passed overall the taurobolic inscriptions, which Fabri (loc. cit.) still quotes in his list -- at least in part."

Also:

Quote:

Dis magnis -- taurobolio criubolioque in aeternum renatus

To the great gods -- by the taurobolium and criobolium reborn into eternity.

God Fearing Atheist · 04-17-2009, 12:34 PM

You're the man.

Roger Pearse · 04-17-2009, 01:26 PM

Glad to help. The translation of the first Latin bit is probably a bit ragged, but I was on the run. The hard bit is the first pass -- hopefully people will correct me where I goofed.

I've added a construe of the Dis magnis bit as well.

God Fearing Atheist · 04-21-2009, 01:28 PM

Anyone know if there is an English translation of Ambrosiaster's Quaestiones veteris et novi testamenti online anywhere? This copy of Firmicus Maternus' De errore profanarum religionum has a note saying that at 84.3 in Quaest. vet., Ambrosiaster claims the priests of Magna Mater thought Christians had "plagiarized" their taurobolium somehow (baptism?).

Roger Pearse · 04-22-2009, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

Anyone know if there is an English translation of Ambrosiaster's Quaestiones veteris et novi testamenti online anywhere? This copy of Firmicus Maternus' De errore profanarum religionum has a note saying that at 84.3 in Quaest. vet., Ambrosiaster claims the priests of Magna Mater thought Christians had "plagiarized" their taurobolium somehow (baptism?).

Is there even an English translation of that work? Alexander Souter did an edition, I know, but possibly some modern translation exists. Is the Latin on archive.org? If we can get the Latin, we might try a construe. (Later: Latin is here).

Do you have a copy of Firmicus Maternus in English? If so, I'd be grateful of a copy of chapter 3, concerning Attis and the Magna Mater. (I've ordered it via ILL, but my local library are sleepy).

I've been looking into Attis sources here.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 04-22-2009, 02:54 AM

Unfortunately the Ambrosiaster PDF is locked (!) so I can't paste any text from it. Can anyone crack it? We want chapter 84 (on p.47 of the PDF). I so hate retyping stuff.

But there is definitely something toward the end of the chapter that sounds like what you want.

Et quia in primo mense, in quo aequinoctium habent Romani, sicut et nos,

And because in the first month, in which the Romans have the equinox, just like us,

ea ipsa observatio ab his custoditur;

...something about "the observation is guarded by these" (ea ipsa?)... the idea is celebrate or observe the equinox

ita ut etiam per sanginem dicant expiationem fieri, sicut et nos per crucem:

so as also through blood they say that expiation is made, just as we by the cross:

hac versutia Paganos detinet in errore,

this cunning trick [by the devil] keeps the pagans in error,

ut putent veritatem nostram imitationem potius videri quam veritatem,

as they think that our truth seems more like an imitation than the truth,

quasi per aemulationem superstitione quadam inventam.

as if through emulating in superstition ??? invented.

Nec enim verum potest, inquiunt, aestimari quod postea est inventum.

For nor is it possible, they say, to consider true what is found to be later.

ripley · 04-22-2009, 04:22 AM

Quote:

LXXXIV - Quare lunae cursum in ratione Paschae custodientes, Paganos reprehendimus, quia dies lunares et motum custodiunt?

Absit a Christianis ut sidera venerari dicantur, quibus indulta est spiritualis cultura, ut despicientes quae videntur, iis quae invisibilia et super coelestia sunt, copulentur; et haec omnia transcendant futuri cum Angelis Dei. Nam et siderum cultores aut cum ipsis erunt, aut infra ipsa. Quomodo enim fieri potest, ut aliquis super haec sit quae colit? Pagani itaque non computum lunae observant; sed lunam ipsam velut deam venerantur. Et effectus curriculorum ejus apprehendisse se arbitrantes, quid certis diebus agendum, quidve cavendum sit, decernunt, imperio ejus quasi vitam et conversationem suam ordine quodam subjicientes: quos, quia extra Dei ordinationem haec ausi sunt usurpare, falli frequenter deprehendimus. Haec enim luminaria in signa temporum Deus constituit. Unde et nos numerum lunae custodimus, non illam ipsam excolimus; ut a quarta decima luna, quae nobis secundum Legem prima est, rationem Paschae observemus. Omnia enim plena Deus instituit: ideoque a quarta decima usque ad vigesimam primam, his septem diebus Pascha nobis celebrare concessum est, ut de his septem aliqui dies a parasceve usque ad resurrectionem Domini concludantur: ut neque tertia decima in passione sit, neque quarta decima in resurrectione, aut quinta decima; ne ante primam secundum nos lunam, passio Christi sit, neque resurrectio ejus non primo die quo coeptus mundus est. Omnia enim mundi tempora unius hebdomadae curriculis numerantur; quia his Deus mundi membra et ornamenta composuit. Sex enim diebus mundum aptavit, et septima cessavit, quam sabbatum appellavit. His enim septem diebus totius mundi ratio et numerus continetur. Semper enim in se redeuntes multiplicant numerum temporum. Post sabbatum enim a primo die repetit semper usque ad diem septimum, id est sabbatum: ut resurrectio Domini primo die inchoati mundi facta discatur; qui dies dominicus dicitur. Ipsum enim fecit Dominus unum cum vespere, et in septenarium numerum evolutus incipit iterum, ut sit post hebdomadam primus. Quod ita decretum ab initio est propter sacramentum incarnationis Domini, et passionis, et resurrectionis. In corpore enim Domini totus prope mundus resurrexit, et instauratus est. Absolutum est, non nos lunam colere; sed numerum, qui per lunae cursum institutus est, custodire. Diabolus autem, qui est satanas, ut fallaciae suae auctoritatem aliquam possit adhibere, et mendacia sua commentitia veritate colorare, primo mense quo sacramenta dominica scit celebranda, quia non mediocris potentiae est, Paganis quae observarent instituit mysteria, ut animas eorum duabus ex causis in errore detineret: ut quia praevenit veritatem fallacia, melius quiddam fallacia videretur, quasi antiquitate praejudicans veritati. Et quia in primo mense, in quo equinoctium habent Romani, sicut et nos, ea ipsa observatio ab his custoditur; ita ut etiam per sanguinem dicant expiationem fieri, sicut et nos per crucem: hac versutia Paganos detinet in errore, ut putent veritatem nostram imitationem potius videri quam veritatem, quasi per aemulationem superstitione quadam inventam. Nec enim verum potest, inquiunt, aestimari quod postea est inventum. Sed quia apud nos pro certo veritas est, et ab initio haec est, virtutum atque prodigiorum signa perhibent testimonium, ut, teste virtute, diaboli improbitas innotescat. Quoniam enim sola est quae facile suadeat, haec contra versutiam et praeventum diaboli posita est, ut simulationem ejus revelet. Nemo enim etiam inimicorum negare audeat illic esse veritatem, ubi virtus apparet.

Merry Christmas, Roger.

Edit:

This link should download the unlocked file. The link will only work once.

Punch your email address into this page for another download link.

Roger Pearse · 04-22-2009, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripley

This link should download the unlocked file. The link will only work once.

Many thanks indeed - got it. This is a new site to me -- what's the deal? How does this work? And... how did you unlock the PDF? (By all means send me a private message or email).

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04-17-2009, 12:34 PM	#14
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	You're the man.

04-17-2009, 01:26 PM	#15
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Glad to help. The translation of the first Latin bit is probably a bit ragged, but I was on the run. The hard bit is the first pass -- hopefully people will correct me where I goofed. I've added a construe of the Dis magnis bit as well.

04-21-2009, 01:28 PM	#16
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	Anyone know if there is an English translation of Ambrosiaster's Quaestiones veteris et novi testamenti online anywhere? This copy of Firmicus Maternus' De errore profanarum religionum has a note saying that at 84.3 in Quaest. vet., Ambrosiaster claims the priests of Magna Mater thought Christians had "plagiarized" their taurobolium somehow (baptism?).

04-22-2009, 02:54 AM	#18
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Unfortunately the Ambrosiaster PDF is locked (!) so I can't paste any text from it. Can anyone crack it? We want chapter 84 (on p.47 of the PDF). I so hate retyping stuff. But there is definitely something toward the end of the chapter that sounds like what you want. Et quia in primo mense, in quo aequinoctium habent Romani, sicut et nos, And because in the first month, in which the Romans have the equinox, just like us, ea ipsa observatio ab his custoditur; ...something about "the observation is guarded by these" (ea ipsa?)... the idea is celebrate or observe the equinox ita ut etiam per sanginem dicant expiationem fieri, sicut et nos per crucem: so as also through blood they say that expiation is made, just as we by the cross: hac versutia Paganos detinet in errore, this cunning trick [by the devil] keeps the pagans in error, ut putent veritatem nostram imitationem potius videri quam veritatem, as they think that our truth seems more like an imitation than the truth, quasi per aemulationem superstitione quadam inventam. as if through emulating in superstition ??? invented. Nec enim verum potest, inquiunt, aestimari quod postea est inventum. For nor is it possible, they say, to consider true what is found to be later.

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