TomT

Basic proofs of Jesus beg the question, can you overturn them?
You have the 9 NT writers in agreement.
You have 40 writers in 66 books over 1500 years in complete agreement. Nothing in human history has this kind of harmony.
You have James who was a family skeptic, who then believed because he said he saw Jesus resurrected.
Paul said he saw Jesus resurrected and then believed after persecuting Christians.
You have all the original 12 apostles (one replaced Judas) in agreement and martyred for seeing Jesus resurrected as first-hand testimonies, and most of the 2nd generation apostles were murdered.
Paul, Peter and James met together in Jerusalem and discussed several things.
James the brother of John was martyred for claiming he saw Jesus resurrected
You have 42 writers talking about Christ in the first 150 years of his death.
The Emperor Claudius died 11 years after Jesus and only 10 writers talked about him within 150 years of his death.
Within 150 years of the death of Julius Caesar, only 5 writers spoke about his military conquests.
There were 11 different group sizes recorded that saw Jesus resurrected (at least). 500 saw Him and many of them were still alive when Paul wrote 1 Cor. 15.
They even saw Jesus rise up to heaven in His rapture.
Jesus was the most selfless man who ever lived and his teaching reaches the deepest into our spirits to change us. He was also the only sinless man that ever lived.
He died as prophesied the Prophets said he would and as Jesus said He would for the salvation of all those who receive Him for eternal life and forgiveness of sins. He was the suffering servant (Is. 53)
His miracles were miraculous.
The probability of fulfilling 62 in Christ prophecies is less than 1 in a trillion.
Jesus said clearly He is God and only a perfect sacrifice can atone for sins. Only the Creator could do that.
Since creation was intelligent and God created, then it would stand to reason by His graces that He would enter into His creation to give us a road map to life (for those who would receive it).
Even if Christ does not return for a million or even a billion years from now, and there are millions even billions of books written in the future, there will always be one book that stands far above all the rest: the 66 books of the Bible as the purest conscience and intuition and communion in spirit.
God needs to forgive us and the only way to do that is through His Son's death who takes all sin unto Himself since we are all sinners and all sin leads to death and the second death (hell).
God loves you and a most loving act of all is to enter into creation to die for you to save you.
The Apostles all went to their death proclaiming visually witnessing seeing Jesus resurrected in His physically spiritual body that they could touch. They didn't even want to believe it to begin with when they heard about until they saw it for themselves. It was not just doubting Thomas that had this faithlessness.
Would men lie about such a thing? They would have no faith in a false claim, a false Jesus if Jesus didn't resurrect by the Holy Spirit.
If this is true, then there is a heaven and a hell, a new city in the new earth and a dimension to keep the unsaved eternally separated from God because they are fully aware in their spirit of God-consciousness that they are born into sin and need salvation; so, if they don't want to be saved it is because that is their choice, and they have no excuse and no one to blame.
By God's good graces He reemphasizes what is already known in our spirit.
This evidence far outweighs the evidence of atheists or agnostics, so logic and conscience states you should come to the cross to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. If I am wrong, then there is no loss since you will just cease to exist. If I am right, the consequences are eternal.
What are you going to do?

NatSciNarg

Somehow, I suspect that the opening line wasn't meant to read like this...

TomT

Actually you are sinning bearing false witness since it doesn't read "Basic proofs of Jesus beg the question," but it says "Basic proofs of Jesus beg the question, can you overturn them?"

Don't try to be couth and cunning because that is unethical. Can you see how you are in fact "begging the question", that is to say, adding in an assumption in your response that has no basis?

You can't be saved by being an agnostic for Jesus said if you are not for Him, you are against Him and since God is proven in creation, you are without excuse. You have a spirit of God-consciousness, but you reject God's salvation, so you are going to hell.

JPD

Have you held your current beliefs for long? Your post sounds rather aggressive which is entirely the wrong strategy to attempt to employ here - you won't last here very long because people will intitially challenge you and then wander off to talk to someone who holds a coherent and intelligent argument. How is God proven in creation precisely? Because the Bible states it? Are you aware of what circular logic actually means? How do you deal with the "difficult passages" in the Bible? Are you talking about God as God or Jesus as God? The Quran struggles with what to do with Christians - some fundamentalist muslims would say that Christians - since they regard Jesus as God - are going to hell. Start again and this time be civilised.

JPD

Oh, and don't project TomT - that is guaranteed to get on everyone's Tom Tits and you on their ignore list.

JoeWallack

JW:

So as to further my ambition of being hailed as the Messiah, I urge you to consider the following:

Why not hail me as your messiah? Well, why not? Consider my qualifications:

1. I definitely exist, so you who would worship me during my life (I do not claim to be immortal) need not waste time debating my existence.

2. I can predict many things about the future. All of my prophecies about the past (the fall of the USSR, the fall of Constantine's city to the Turk, the Gulf war, the stock market, the Yankees victory, the last twenty winning lottery numbers etc.) have come true, and none of my public prophecies has been shown to be false. I can tell you exactly when the next solar eclipse will be, and can foretell the fall of leaves from trees. So why not me as your messiah?

3. My motives are pure. I won't make you do stuff you do not want to do, I will not make you feel bad and, if you are reasonably young, female and very attractive, I might even make you feel good about worshiping me. And I promise you won't end up in a burning building on the prairie somewhere, or on a mountain top surrounded by federal agents. Your worship of me will never be worthy of note on the pages of our tabloid press. So why not me as your messiah?

4. I am a good role model, as I do not smoke anything, am kind to children, domesticated animals and obey all laws pertaining to currency transactions, firearms, and so forth.

5. I am well spoken and well spoken of. Indeed, you would be proud to have me as your messiah, no matter your pre-existing religious orientation. The worship of me as your messiah is perfectly compatible with all known standard religions of amenable people. Nothing to apologize for here!

6. I am not the devil, so by worshipping me, those who worship me would be at no risk of inadvertently worshipping the devil.

7. I can turn flour into bread and use it to feed humanity. I can walk on very cold water.

8. Suppose that I am the messiah and I posit that the only way to get to heaven after you die is to worship me in life. Further suppose that either the statement is true or there is no afterlife. If you worship me and there is no afterlife, well, nothing lost there, right? But suppose I am the messiah, and you have not hailed me as such? Where does that leave you? Exactly! Why take such a risk?

9. If a real messiah shows up, I'll hail him as such and quietly get out of the way.

10. So come on, worship me! I call upon all beautiful young women (of legal age, of course) to e-mail me with all sorts of personal information so we can get this Messiah adoration project underway. I tell you the truth; I promise you won't be sorry―honest!!!



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Julian

[MOD]
Preaching is not allowed on this forum, please stick to the arguments.

Julian
Moderator AS:C&H
[/MOD]

Russell's Teapot

The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is fairly consistent, too. There have been thousands of writers all over the world talking about the Prophet Henderson. Believers in the FSM are often persecuted and ostracized for their beliefs. All FSM miracles are miraculously miraculous. If FSMism is wrong, you've lost nothing. If it is right, you've lost limitless beer and strippers for eternity. I will accept your apology for not believing in His Noodly Appendage in written or email form. Thanks!

JPD

So if Biblegod is this incredible it shouldn't be beyond him/her/it to present evidence that will convince even the most hardened skeptic - right now. Or is it actually the case that Biblegod could do anything he/she/it wanted, but he/she/it doesn't because he/she/it doesn't exist, or because they just don't want to, or because they can't? Explain this please and then explain how the Genesis account of creation works in relation to everything we see. Is the earth a circle or is it in fact a sphere?

Julian

Wow, a long post and you managed to not get anything in it that is remotely relevant, correct or convincing. I do want to point out one gem of a statement:

Priceless.

I encourage everybody to read the OP for sheer entertainment value and unintentional humor.

Julian