spin

I can't really speak for many people on this subject. When you realize that much of Daniel's "prophecy" is vaticinium ex eventu, it makes one come to terms with what the text is actually doing, and that is as a work of edification for those fighting the oppression of Antiochus IV, the biggest presence in the second part of the book, about whom each of the latter visions is about.

Dating the book allows one to see themes in common with 2 Maccabees and the Enochic Animal Apocalypse.

My brain hurts trying to fathom what your rephrasing says.


spin

Smullyan-esque

When I read hysterical over-reacting like this, what I hear is "You guys won't let me cheat at all. What the hell is wrong with you?"

Amaleq13

The conclusion that magic does not exist is neither baseless nor speculative. There simply is no good evidence to suggest otherwise.

Unless you know of some?

mdd344

spin,
I believe I can show otherwise, to that point about Daniel and all of the others.

Now my question rephrase is this. Who determines, (how is it determined) who (which one of us) is right (assuming I post a thorough rebuttal to the questions, which I intend to do tomorrow)?

And what is the standard of rightness that must be met? Is it your ten sources, verses my ten? Or if you have 20, and I have 15, do you then consider yourself to be right? What if I answer every question, am I right?

What is rightness? And on an issue that is as substantial and important as this one (for is it not the case that were Daniel to be proved to be both genuine and authentic predictive prophecy would be confirmed, thus so too would God) what is the standard for determining it?

Which is why I asked, thinking out loud, is this really a matter of source verses source, with the determining factor of 'rightness' made up merely by our own character and life choices?

spin

You've already shown me what you are capable of at present. I've seen more ways than you can probably imagine for a literalist to squirm through Daniel and I no desire to suffer the reflux.


spin

mdd344

Spin,
But you did not answer what I asked about 'rightness.' Why?

mdd344

Still waiting for spin to give the standard of rightness by which his arguments and my arguments regarding the book of Daniel might be judged--in answering the questions I asked a couple of posts above this one.

itsamysteryhuh

What one sees as evidence/proof, another will dismiss completely due to personal reasons.

An example of such (so-called) logic:

1). Person sees the Bible says not to commit adultery
2). Adultery feels "right" to the person
3). The Bible must not be true




I disagree. Your ad-hominem attempt (re: "poptart") to discredit/ridicule what was stated by me won't change that fact either, big guy. Please, keep speculating. But since we are appointed once to die, your time is limited.

neilgodfrey

You've lost me here. Where does this idea of four "world kingdoms" come from? Can you explain exactly what you mean by "world kingdoms"?

Also what do you think Daniel means when he says that the 4th kingdom will shatter and crush all the preceding kingdoms? In what realistic sense did Rome shatter the Babylonian empire along with the Persian empire and the Hellenistic empire? (Dan.2:40)

You argue that the church is the final kingdom. Who exactly are "the kings" existing at the time that God set up this kingdom? (Dan.2:44). And in what sense did this church kingdom "break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, the Hellenistic and Rome)"? When did the church ever "consume" Babylon and Persia?

Have you studied alternative interpretations of this passage of Daniel? Are you aware of any interpretations of Daniel 2 that make far more cogent sense of the questions I have posed here than your interpretation?

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

Sauron

What is wrong the the existing method for evaluating claims from other ancient texts?

Do you believe that the bible can be evaluated according to that existing standard?

Or do you believe that the bible should get special treatment, and be exempt from that level of inspection and analysis?

The prophecy must be verifiably true, without lots of interpretational gymnastics, special pleading, and ad hoc crutches to keep it standing up. Can you make a case for prophecy, without those kinds of tools to help you?

Why should the question of how old a document is, somehow be related to "character"? And why should the question of whether a document is original, or edited, somehow bring in a person's "life choices"?

We wouldn't try to date a manuscript of Shakespeare's "Macbeth" by those standards, and anyone who tried to bring "character and life choices" into that dating process would be accused of muddying the waters.