aa5874

The NT is not a credible source and in any event, your statements are all unsubstantiated. The chronology and the main characters of the NT cannot be accounted for externally. Until you can find Jesus, in a non-apologetic history book of antiquity, then all you have are one-sided incredulity.

Jeffrey Gibson

He may be. But that's not the issue. The issue is whether we find in books of the NT "bickering" on any issue that is discussed in any other book, not who might have been bickering with whom.

So I'll ask again -- in the (I fear, forlorn hope) that you might actually give a straight answer to it -- is there a prima facie difference on the issue of "faith and works" between what we find in Chapter 2 verse one in the NT writing called James and what we find in Chapter 3 vvs. 20-22 and Chapter 3 vvs. 27-28 in the NT work called the Epistle to the Romans, or not?

The answer is either yes or no. Which is it?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

Why do you think it is the case, as you claim it is, that by virtue of their genre, their function, and their intent, Apologia an, apologetic source, and "apologetic literature" from the ancient world are worthless as evidence for the historicity, and as sources for the life, and teaching, and "ministry", of the figure whose teaching, actions, reputation, and ministry they are intent to defend?

Classical scholars do not think so -- as is evident in their use of various Apologia from the ancient world to reconstruct the life and teaching and career/ministry of the figures that are defended within these works when there is no "external non-apologetic source" for that figure, or for the aspects of the life and teaching and career of that figure that the apologetic sources deal with.

So what is it that you know about ancient apologetic works and the genre of Apologia that classical scholars and professional historians don't that allows you to be as certain as you evidently are certain about the worthlessness of "apologetic" sources both as evidence for the historicity, and as source for the teaching and career and biography, of the figure such literature speaks about?

I note with interest that despite my asking these questions before, you've ignored/dodged them altogether. May we now/finally have your answer -- which I hope will be a straight one -- to them?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

And your evidence for this is what?


Again I have to ask, what is the nature and extent of your familiarity with NT studies, especially with regard to the so called "new perspective" on Paul and the place of the law and works within 1st century Judaism?
I wonder how you square your claim about what Paul is writing about in Romans with Rom 13:8-10?

Jeffrey

aa5874

Who is James and what does "bicker" mean? Two unknown authors made undated statements in two epistles without acknowledging each other. Did they bicker? How would I know until I can unravel the chronology.

arnoldo

I have to confess I'm not familiar with the so called "new perspective" on Paul which is the subject of the following book by E.P. Sanders : Paul and Palestinian Judaism: A Comparison of Patterns of Religion. (or via: amazon.co.uk) In view of this new perspective it must have been a monumental decision for early christians to abandon their covenant within the orthodox jewish society in favor of the new covenant which Yeshua estabished.

Jeffrey Gibson

That doesn't seem to be Paul's view of things -- or Matthew's for that matter -- since they do not seem to see that accepting Jesus as the God's of Israel's Messiah entails an abandonment of anything.

What makes you think otherwise? And what do you mean by "in view of this new perspective". Do you actually know what the "new persepective" is?

Jeffrey

arnoldo

James is the writer of the Episte of James
Despite claiming that the statments are undated and you do not know the chronology you still claim that without question these two epistles were not written any time before 70 AD, right?

Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following from the Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia Deluxe 2004:

"James (book of Bible), book of the New Testament, one of seven New Testament Epistles that are known collectively as the Catholic, or General, Epistles because each is addressed to the entire church rather than to a specific group. Ecclesiastical tradition has ascribed the Epistle to the Apostle James, called The Less. Today, however, most biblical scholars suggest that the traditional claim is supported neither by ancient nor by recent evidence. Some believe rather that the author was a Greek Christian who had a fine command of the Greek language, who apparently knew or had read some of the letters of St. Paul and St. Peter, and who thus probably wrote toward the close of the 1st century ad. Some, however, hold that the author was a Jewish Christian, and they vary about the date of composition (various points between 70 and 132).

"James is a miscellaneous collection of moral instructions and exhortations, similar in style, for example, to the Book of Sirach and to Jewish Apocryphal wisdom literature. The main themes developed in the Epistle are concerned with the application of Christianity to everyday living. Believers should seek and prefer patience, “wisdom from above” (3:17), humility, and “the prayer of faith” (5:15); for great riches, a boasting tongue, and “bitter jealousy and selfish ambition” (3:14) always corrupt. Christians with an unwavering faith may endure the severest temptations. Faith by itself, however, is no safeguard in everyday life, for “faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (2:17); Christians must also show their faith by good deeds.

"Although the Epistle of James was recognized as canonical as early as the 2nd century, not all persons then, or later, accepted it without reservation. Martin Luther, to mention one notable dissenter, objected strongly to the book. He felt that parts of it contradicted the teachings of St. Paul, and he called it an “epistle of straw.” In recent years, however, James has been more favorably received."

spamandham

I can see the evidence of it within the texts themselves. I don't see why a bio on the authors is necessary, or even very useful.