Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 12-02-2009, 11:03 PM

Sulpitius Severus claimed Jesus was born on the 25th December in Sacred History 2.27.

Quote:

.....For as now the advent of Christ was at hand, it was necessary, according to the predictions of the prophets, that they should be deprived of their own rulers, that they might not look for anything beyond Christ. Under this Herod, in the thirty-third year of his reign, Christ was born on the twenty-fifth of December in the consulship of Sabinus and Rufinus...

See http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/35052.htm

avi · 12-02-2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Sulpitius Severus claimed Jesus was born on the 25th December in Sacred History 2.27.

Fifth Century

dog-on · 12-03-2009, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Failte

Seems like a lot of mental gymnastics to "make" it work out ("must have been conceived on the same date..." Um, why?) for something that has a perfectly reasonable explanation already.

The theory with the most evidence wins, and there seems to be no evidence to connect Christmas with Sol Invictus, except maybe the shared date? Since Christians at the time made the pagan religions the enemy and tried to make Christianity distinct, it is unlikely that they borrowed the pagan holiday. If there was evidence for the theory, then it would overrule the improbability. The author has this line of evidence for his theory:
The footnote reads:

Quote:

11. De solstitia et aequinoctia conceptionis et nativitatis domini nostri iesu christi et iohannis baptistae.

On the contrary, stealing the holiday is exactly what you would do.

The Dagda · 12-03-2009, 01:43 AM

In that case I'm taking 25th of December for FSM!

Damn it. :devil1:

James Brown · 12-03-2009, 07:49 AM

What amuses me is when atheists co-opt pagan traditions (Solstice Tree?) in order to avoid celebrating a Christian holiday which itself co-opted the same pagan traditions.

dog-on · 12-03-2009, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

What amuses me is when atheists co-opt pagan traditions (Solstice Tree?) in order to avoid celebrating a Christian holiday which itself co-opted the same pagan traditions.

Well, I, an atheist, like Christmas.

Failte · 12-03-2009, 07:22 PM

I love christmas -- I love the whole season. I wish everyone a happy holiday/merry christmas with abandon. Freaks out my fundy friends, who keep wiating for me to "reject" christmas and declare war on it, I guess. How can I even say christmas without bursting into flames, they must wonder.

I have a hard time seeing Solstice as a religious holiday, though. It's so basic to the turning of the seasons, the shortest day of the year, the change to longer days and shorter nights-- many religious and non-religious groups have celebrations that coincide with the date, but that's true of a lot of days. The whole tree, thing, though, is a bit weird.

A house down the street from us has a rather odd collection of lighted and inflatable creatures in their yard -- santa, reindeer, three wise men, a extra nativity scene, a few crosses, snowmen.We laugh every time we go by, and at least once each year, some of the high school kids rearrange the various plastic people into rude tableaux.

spamandham · 12-03-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It is popularly believed (and accepted by many Christians) that the Dec 25 date was chosen to coopt pagan celebrations of the solstice, or the birthdate of Sol Invictus, and it is indisputable that many elements of the Christmas celebration are pagan (the Yule log, Christmas trees, etc.)

....uhm, okaaaay, since we *know* some aspects of the Christmas celebration are of pagan origin, therefor this principle aspect is just a coincidence!? What a bizarre display of mental gymnastics.

HelmetWB · 12-04-2009, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

What amuses me is when atheists co-opt pagan traditions (Solstice Tree?) in order to avoid celebrating a Christian holiday which itself co-opted the same pagan traditions.

I don’t see a lot of separation between Christian traditions and so-called ‘pagan’ religious observances. Come to think of it, I don’t see any! But while I’m not a fan of Christmas-New Year’s week, it bothers me not for an instant that people celebrate the winter solstice with light and greenery and decorations and colorfully wrapped doodads. Nice for the kiddies and all that! I don’t believe in God; which makes me an atheist. This doesn’t make me the Grinch who stole Christmas. Christians on the other hand, do manage to get on my bad side. Their ‘good news’ has Jesus massacring both nonbelievers and the-wrong-kind-of-believers left and right, front and back in ‘Revelations.’ Also, the joining of the political right wing with religious fundamentalism has led us to a ‘new’ version of Christmas as an ode to conspicuous consumption. Jesus, we find loves ‘us’ little consumers of doodads and hates the left for ‘stealing’ this mass-consumption day from Christianity. Instead, let’s pack every store just as Jesus intended!

andrewcriddle · 12-05-2009, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It is popularly believed (and accepted by many Christians) that the Dec 25 date was chosen to coopt pagan celebrations of the solstice, or the birthdate of Sol Invictus, and it is indisputable that many elements of the Christmas celebration are pagan (the Yule log, Christmas trees, etc.)

....uhm, okaaaay, since we *know* some aspects of the Christmas celebration are of pagan origin, therefor this principle aspect is just a coincidence!? What a bizarre display of mental gymnastics.

The issue is that these "pagan" elements are typically rather late and geographically limited additions to the Christmas celebrations.

In order to argue that Christmas is in its origins pagan I think one has to include only elements of Christmas known to be widespread in the 1st millennium CE.

Andrew Criddle

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12-03-2009, 01:43 AM	#24
The Dagda Banned Join Date: May 2008 Location: England, Portsmouth Posts: 5,108	In that case I'm taking 25th of December for FSM! Damn it. :devil1:

12-03-2009, 07:49 AM	#25
James Brown Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas, U.S. Posts: 5,844	What amuses me is when atheists co-opt pagan traditions (Solstice Tree?) in order to avoid celebrating a Christian holiday which itself co-opted the same pagan traditions.

12-03-2009, 07:22 PM	#27
Failte Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,405	I love christmas -- I love the whole season. I wish everyone a happy holiday/merry christmas with abandon. Freaks out my fundy friends, who keep wiating for me to "reject" christmas and declare war on it, I guess. How can I even say christmas without bursting into flames, they must wonder. I have a hard time seeing Solstice as a religious holiday, though. It's so basic to the turning of the seasons, the shortest day of the year, the change to longer days and shorter nights-- many religious and non-religious groups have celebrations that coincide with the date, but that's true of a lot of days. The whole tree, thing, though, is a bit weird. A house down the street from us has a rather odd collection of lighted and inflatable creatures in their yard -- santa, reindeer, three wise men, a extra nativity scene, a few crosses, snowmen.We laugh every time we go by, and at least once each year, some of the high school kids rearrange the various plastic people into rude tableaux.

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