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10-10-2011, 10:43 AM | #11 |
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I have not insulted any posters.
Are you looking for an excuse? I come here to better understand the arguments |
10-10-2011, 11:13 AM | #12 | |
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It is frequently claimed, even by experts in the field, that no Jews expected their messiah to be killed, that all of them expected a militarily triumphant übermensch. And therefore Christianity went totally off-book when it came up with the idea that their "failed" messiah was the "real" messiah. But this is actually demonstrably false. Some Jews did expect a dying messiah.I would need to see the claims by experts in the field. I doubt that any expert would have expressed their views in such an un-nuanced fashion. Surely you've read comments by experts on the topic, Toto. The only views I've read expressed was the claim that Jews varied in their beliefs about the Messiah -- whether he would be a military leader, or whether he would be a priestly leader, or whether there would be both. Have you ever read any expert claiming "all the Jews expected a military triumphant übermensch" in such an un-nuanced fashion? There is nothing wrong with the article itself mind you, I'm just wondering who are the ones making these frequent claims? I think Carrier is conflating apologetic arguments with arguments by "experts in the field", pandering to those readers who are on the same wave-length. As this seems to be standard operating practice among some writers, perhaps I'm overly sensitive to this writing technique. |
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10-10-2011, 11:57 AM | #13 | |
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You are, of course, free to ask a question on that blog. I hope that you do better than James McGrath, or that you have a better excuse than "antihistamines befuddled my brain." |
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10-10-2011, 12:58 PM | #14 | |
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There is an online version of 11Q13
It seems to involve a dying messiah in only a rather technical sense. Andrew Criddle ETA Checking in other sources. In the passage Quote:
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10-10-2011, 01:59 PM | #15 |
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Isn't there a decent 'prophecy' about a Messiah who meets an early death in Daniel?
Carrier references this also. |
10-10-2011, 02:01 PM | #16 | ||
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I am not an expert on Carrier (yet), and I may share some of GDon's reservations, but overall, I think it's good to see an ancient historian delving. I think I may buy the new book when it comes out. I only hope it is cheaper than 'Not the Impossible Faith' |
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10-11-2011, 07:45 AM | #17 | |
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Just had to say so. |
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10-11-2011, 07:49 AM | #18 | |
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10-11-2011, 02:28 PM | #19 |
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Anyone who knows even a little about the topic understands that the Jews had varying ideas about the Messiah, including the idea of a priestly one. Carrier starts that blog post with a strawman. Flippant statement or otherwise, it is still a strawman.
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10-11-2011, 02:53 PM | #20 |
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GDon - you can tell him that on his blog. (Just be careful of antihistamines.) Or wait for when he publishes this and footnotes the people he refers to.
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