Chaucer

Although I gravitate most to the "Historical" line in the graph, I'm not sure I subscribe to what everyone in the right-hand box in that line asserts, since I know that Borg -- for one -- does not subscribe to the idea that the historical Jesus ever actually called himself a son of God or actually called God "my Father". In fact, all three of the earliest textual strata for his sayings (Thomas, Mark, the parallel sayings in Matt./Luke) agree that Jesus did view himself in that way (and that doesn't mean that he viewed himself as the only Son of God or as co-equal with God in any way). So I would associate myself with the "Historical" line on the graph but fold in with that line the notion that the historical Jesus of Nazareth did actually (either out of deceptiveness or out of a sincere perception, deluded or not) claim for himself a "Son" status vis-a-vis "my Father" God.

Chaucer

spin

The thing with Doherty is that his Jesus is one that was believed to have existed, just not in the mundane world but on some higher plane of existence, such as perceived by Gnostics. Have I got that wrong? Whatever the case, I'm not happy with "Supernatural". Just think of it as a placeholder. I had "Mythological", but given the range of weird and wonderful views of what mythological most people have in the religious context, I can't use that term.


spin

spin

Isn't this a variation on the last Jesus, that of R.M. Price? Or do you think there should be a "he doesn't exist, but we don't know why he doesn't"? I'm a little confused. (It's partly lack of sleep.)


spin

gdeering

What I meant by “I don’t know” is that we are at an early stage in efforts to piece together what the thoughts and beliefs of the “- 0 +” generations were (it’s a little obscure symbol just to see if you’re awake). I accept that the agnostic stance is preferable for polite society, but really my opinion is similar to God of the Gaps. I am sure a wit has already coined “Historical Jesus of the Gaps.”

If the agnostic stance is: “who can say, we’ll never know” - what I am saying is - there is (or will be) greater evidence for a first century “Messianic desire” than there is for an obscure flesh and blood philosopher/rebel/whatever Jesus. It’s a stance or direction, not an answer; I’m just not able to find my stance with in your framework.

The position might posit that the more real biblical historians and students of ancient culture and mythology do their work the less we need to have an actual person to hang the religion on. Why the first century? As with some answers in science, it happened at that time because it did.

As has been debate here for years, there are many ways to conceive of a fiction arising from the need to have a Christ, and when looking at how Christianity seemed to establish itself: scattershot philosophically and geographically across the Mediterranean, Africa and Asia Minor indicates that the “need” existed before the story could be established. Fodder for the students of culture.

It seems like a general mythicist position; perhaps someone here can explain it better.

Were I throwing stones in the 1st century and a new mythology could assure me of an pleasant afterlife, as opposed to Hades or Sheol - I'd fall in line. You had me at "Heaven."


Gregg

dogsgod

If I recall correctly Doherty refers to Paul's Christ as a spiritual entity residing in a heavenly realm. Spiritual might be the ticket rather than supernatural, what do you think?

spin

[T2]{r:bg=lightgray}{c:bg=slategray;ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Type of Jesus
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Status
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Characteristics
|
{c:w=45;ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Use of Myth
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Published Proponents
||
{c:bg=#80C0C0}Maximal
|
Existed in real world
|
The gospels are seen as reliable documentary evidence and record the known events in the life of the man who started the religion.
|
{c:bg=#ffe4b0}Minimal
|
Joseph Klausner, Birger Gerhardsson
||
{c:bg=#80C0C0;b-b=2,dashed,black}Historical
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Existed in real world
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}The record is problematical, but literary records--gospels, church fathers and even pagan sources--contain vestiges of real world knowledge of a preacher, who was crucified.
|
{c:bg=#f6d480;b-b=2,dashed,black}Some, causing source problems
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Borg, Crossan & Jesus seminar
||
{c:bg=#80C0C0;b-b=3,double,black}"Accreted"
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}A core preacher existed
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}Jesus was the product of various sources including knowledge of a real person, as can be found in "Q". This position does not see the crucifixion as historical.
|
{c:bg=#F0C060;b-b=3,double,black}Yes
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}G.A. Wells
||
{c:bg=DarkOrchid;b-b=3,double,black}Spiritual realm
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}Existed in spiritual realm
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}Purely theological in origin, Jesus performed his salvific act not in this mundane world, but in a spiritual realm. Later this spiritual being became reconceived as of this world and reified.
|
{c:bg=Orange;b-b=3,double,black}Full
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}Earl Doherty (*)
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,dashed,black}Mythological composite
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Authorial invention
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Jesus was the product of mainly pagan mythological elements, be they solar myth (Acharya S) or dying & resurrection myths of Osiris/Dionysis (Freke & Gandy).
|
{c:bg=Orange;b-b=2,dashed,black}Full
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Acharya S, Freke & Gandy
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,dashed,black}Fictional
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Authorial invention
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Jesus was the product of purely literary activity. Flavian emperors constructed a new religion with the aid of Josephus in an effort to try to gain control over the Jews.
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}[-]
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Joe Atwill (*)
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,solid,black}Transformed
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black}Did not exist
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black}Jesus was the product of corrupted retelling of events relating to Julius Caesar. Under Vespasian the story was developed into a new religion.
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black}No
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black}Francesco Carotta
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}Traditional
|
Unknown (tradition doesn't permit clarification)
|
Tradition doesn't distinguish between real and non-real. It merely takes accepted elements ("accepted" -> believed to be real) and passes them on with associated transmission distortions.
|
[-]
|
[-]
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}Jesus agnostic
|
Unknown
|
Due to the nature of available information there is insufficient evidence to decide on the existence of Jesus.
|
[-]
|
Robert M. Price[/T2]Notes:
1. Degrees of affinity between the various Jesuses (as indicated by the divisions between them): Single: close; Dashed: further; Double: little; Solid: none
2. Quotes around the types of Jesus indicate labels needing improvement.

spin

spin

[]

mountainman

[T2]{r:bg=lightgray}{c:bg=slategray;ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Type of Jesus
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Status
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Characteristics
|
{c:w=45;ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Use of Myth
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Published Proponents
||
{c:bg=#80C0C0}Maximal
|
Existed in real world
|
The gospels are seen as reliable documentary evidence and record the known events in the life of the man who started the religion.
|
{c:bg=#ffe4b0}Minimal
|
Joseph Klausner, Birger Gerhardsson
||
{c:bg=#80C0C0;b-b=2,dashed,black}Historical
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Existed in real world
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}The record is problematical, but literary records--gospels, church fathers and even pagan sources--contain vestiges of real world knowledge of a preacher, who was crucified.
|
{c:bg=#f6d480;b-b=2,dashed,black}Some, causing source problems
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Borg, Crossan & Jesus seminar
||
{c:bg=#80C0C0;b-b=3,double,black}"Accreted"
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}A core preacher existed
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}Jesus was the product of various sources including knowledge of a real person, as can be found in "Q". This position does not see the crucifixion as historical.
|
{c:bg=#F0C060;b-b=3,double,black}Yes
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}G.A. Wells
||
{c:bg=DarkOrchid;b-b=3,double,black}Mythological
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}Existed in spiritual realm
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}Purely theological in origin, Jesus performed his salvific act not in this mundane world, but in a spiritual realm. Later this spiritual being became reconceived as of this world and reified.
|
{c:bg=Orange;b-b=3,double,black}Full
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black}Earl Doherty (*)
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,dashed,black}Mythological composite
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Authorial invention
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Jesus was the product of mainly pagan mythological elements, be they solar myth (Acharya S) or dying & resurrection myths of Osiris/Dionysis (Freke & Gandy).
|
{c:bg=Orange;b-b=2,dashed,black}Full
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Acharya S, Freke & Gandy
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,dashed,black}Fictional
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Authorial invention
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Jesus was the product of purely literary activity. Flavian emperors constructed a new religion with the aid of Josephus in an effort to try to gain control over the Jews.
|
{c:bg=#FF0000;b-b=2,dashed,black}[Fraudulent]
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black}Joe Atwill (*)
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,solid,black}Transformed
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black}Did not exist
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black}Jesus was the product of corrupted retelling of events relating to Julius Caesar. Under Vespasian the story was developed into a new religion.
|
{c:bg=#FF0000;b-b=2,solid,black}[Fraudulent]
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black}Francesco Carotta
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}Traditional
|
Unknown (tradition doesn't permit clarification)
|
Tradition doesn't distinguish between real and non-real. It merely takes accepted elements ("accepted" -> believed to be real) and passes them on with associated transmission distortions.
|
[-]
|
[-]
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue}Jesus agnostic
|
Unknown
|
Due to the nature of available information there is insufficient evidence to decide on the existence of Jesus.
|
[-]
|
Robert M. Price[/T2]Notes:
1. Degrees of affinity between the various Jesuses (as indicated by the divisions between them): Single: close; Dashed: further; Double: little; Solid: none
2. Quotes around the types of Jesus indicate labels needing improvement.

spin

[T2]{r:bg=lightgray}{c:bg=slategray;ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Type of Jesus
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Status
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Characteristics
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}The gospels
|
{c:w=45;ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Use of Myth
|
{c:ah=center;b-b=2,solid,black}Published Proponents
||
{c:bg=#80C0C0;av=top}Maximal
|
{c:av=top}Existed in real world
|
{c:av=top}The gospels are seen as reliable documentary evidence and record the known events in the life of the man who started the religion.
|
{c:bg=#0070B0;av=top}Basically historical material
|
{c:bg=#ffe4b0;av=top}Minimal
|
Joseph Klausner, Birger Gerhardsson
||
{c:bg=#80C0C0;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Historical
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Existed in real world
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}The record is problematical, but literary records--gospels, church fathers and even pagan sources--contain vestiges of real world knowledge of a preacher, who was crucified.
|
{c:bg=#0090D0;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Historical data obscured by transmission problems
|
{c:bg=#f6d480;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Some, causing source problems
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Borg, Crossan & Jesus seminar
||
{c:bg=#80C0C0;b-b=3,double,black;av=top}"Accreted"
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black;av=top}A core preacher existed
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Jesus was the product of various sources including knowledge of a real person, as can be found in "Q". This position does not see the crucifixion as historical.
|
{c:bg=#60B0FF;b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Little of historical value
|
{c:bg=#F0C060;b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Yes
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black;av=top}G.A. Wells
||
{c:bg=DarkOrchid;b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Spiritual realm
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Existed in spiritual realm
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Purely theological in origin, Jesus performed his salvific act not in this mundane world, but in a spiritual realm. Later this spiritual being became reconceived as of this world and reified.
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Embody a complex myth & reflect honest belief distorted by reification
|
{c:bg=Orange;b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Full
|
{c:b-b=3,double,black;av=top}Earl Doherty (*)
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Mythological composite
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Authorial invention
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Jesus was the product of mainly pagan mythological elements, be they solar myth (Acharya S) or dying & resurrection myths of Osiris/Dionysis (Freke & Gandy).
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Nothing but cobbled myths
|
{c:bg=Orange;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Full
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Acharya S, Freke & Gandy
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Fictional
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Authorial invention
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Jesus was the product of purely literary activity. Flavian emperors constructed a new religion with the aid of Josephus in an effort to try to gain control over the Jews.
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}A tool for deceiving & manipulating people
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}[-]
|
{c:b-b=2,dashed,black;av=top}Joe Atwill (*)
||
{c:bg=#B05070;b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Transformed
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Did not exist
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Jesus was the product of corrupted retelling of events relating to Julius Caesar. Under Vespasian the story was developed into a new religion.
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Underlying history garbled beyond recognition
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}No
|
{c:b-b=2,solid,black;av=top}Francesco Carotta
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue;av=top}Traditional
|
{c:av=top}Unknown (tradition doesn't permit clarification)
|
{c:av=top}Tradition doesn't distinguish between real and non-real. It merely takes accepted elements ("accepted" -> believed to be real) and passes them on with associated transmission distortions.
|
{c:av=top}A complex of traditions, oral, then part written, then fully written
|
{c:av=top}[-]
|
{c:av=top}[-]
||
{c:bg=RoyalBlue;av=top}}Jesus agnostic
|
{c:av=top}Unknown
|
{c:av=top}Due to the nature of available information there is insufficient evidence to decide on the existence of Jesus.
|
{c:av=top}No current way of evaluating for veracity
|
{c:av=top}[-]
|
{c:av=top}Robert M. Price[/T2]Notes:
1. Degrees of affinity between the various Jesuses (as indicated by the divisions between them): Single: close; Dashed: further; Double: little; Solid: none
2. Quotes around the types of Jesus indicate labels needing improvement.

spin

avi

I like the chart.

I think it is provocative and challenging. It is an excellent device to assist those of us with an inadequate prior (childhood, or scholastic experience) exposure to Judaism and Christianity. The addition of the Gospels will be criticized by some, but not by me, for I find that column a welcome addition, and would even add (but with obvious CLUTTER, so, not really a useful suggestion) another column for the PreNicene patristic evidence.

I like the colors, though my own vision no longer adequately distinguishes some of them, still, between what I can make out, and what I remember, they add a great deal.

In software engineering, we would grant this version an alphanumeric code, something like 0.40, perhaps, or alpha 4.5.

The Beta version will arrive shortly, after further discussion on the new column, then on to version 1.0. Hurrah.

avi