Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 01-16-2013, 12:10 PM

The point was not all that abstract or indeciperable.

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It is quite amazing the number of Torah Commandments that are directly concerned with The Temple, and of course cannot be properly observed or kept or done without that Temple to DO them in.
Jews can continue pray about it, but there is little that they can DO about it unless they can rebuild The Temple. They know it, Christianity knows it, Islam knows it.
Wonder how long.

There is no place else on earth.
Psalm 5:7
Psalm 65:4
Psalm 68:28-31
Psalm 79:1
Psalm 138:2
Do not, cannot apply to any other place.

mountainman · 01-16-2013, 04:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Robert Tulip

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Originally Posted by mountainman

"Historia Augusta".

that is only the source for the Hadrian comment - not the rest, which is my own speculation. And I am sure you agree the Historia is a fourth century forgery

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The Novel Invention of (a) Fake Sources and (b) other Fake Sources which disagree with them

Among the many games that are played in the Historia Augusta is the invention of no less than 130 fake documents, most charmingly introduced in the introduction of the Life of Aurelian. Fake sources were not a new practice (cf. the invented letters in Plutarch's Life of Alexander). What is new, however, is that the author the Historia Augusta invents sources to disagree with them.

This specifically matches the modus operandi in Eusebius's "Church History" in which we find the orthodox heresiologists arguing with and citing the heretical gnostics.

Were the "Historia Augusta" and the "Historia Ecclesiastica" manufactured in the same Constantinian scriptorium?

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Who used the snake on a pole first?

Moses or the cult of Asclepius?

Great question!

Does anyone have an answer?

What date do we have for the earliest texts of the Book of Numbers?
What date do we have for the earliest Asclepian snake?

(See below)

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I particularly like the Aion, with six coils seemingly representing the six ages from Leo to Pisces. Perhaps the snake pole image goes back to the time when the dragon was at the north celestial pole. I discuss this in this essay on the Gnostic Peratae and elsewhere.

Interesting Robert. I am still browsing. The only astro stuff I have looked at in any depth myself is set out in Constantine and the Zero Ayanamsa estimates

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus says "...symbols similar to the classical caduceus sometimes appeared on Mesopotamian cylinder seals. He suggested the symbol originated some time between 3000 and 4000 BCE, and that it might have been the source of the Greek caduceus.[10]

The Staff of the god Asclepius with its single snake and the Staff of the god Hermes with its double snake, the Caduceus need to be disambiguated.

The former was traditionally used as the symbol of the medical profession.

Rod of Asclepius

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In Greek mythology, the Rod of Asclepius (⚕; sometimes also spelled Asklepios or Aesculapius), also known as the asklepian,[1] is a serpent-entwined rod wielded by the Greek god Asclepius, a deity associated with healing and medicine. The symbol has continued to be used in modern times, where it is associated with medicine and health care, yet frequently confused with the staff of the god Hermes, the caduceus.

To repeat the question again being a little more specific ....

Who used the single snake on a staff first?

Moses or the cult of Asclepius?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI on the Book of Numbers supposedly written by Moses WHEN?????

The Book of Numbers (from Greek Ἀριθμοί, Arithmoi; Hebrew: במדבר, Bəmidbar, "In the desert [of]") is the fourth book of the Hebrew Bible, and the fourth of five books of the Jewish Torah.[1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers 21:9

So Moses made a snake out of bronze and attached it to a pole.

Then anyone who was bitten by a snake could look at the bronze snake and be healed!

So was Moses appealing to the known healing associations of a pre-existent Staff of Asclepius here?

Or was "Moses" just a Jewish prophet for the Egypto-Graeco god of Asclepius, son of Apollo, son of Zeus?

NOTE: Michael Grant, in his well-respected 'The Rise of the Greeks' makes
note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios'
was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras.

Did "Moses" write Numbers before Pythagoras existed?

stephan huller · 01-16-2013, 04:26 PM

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Are you implying that Jewish racism towards Egypt was so extreme that the Jews would not have dreamt of participating in any syncretic defilement?

:rolling:

If I wasn't laughing I would take your reference to 'Jewish racism' as a sign of anti-Semitism. But I have seen your other posts and know better.

mountainman · 01-16-2013, 04:57 PM

If I wasn't playing poker I'd say stay on topic.

Did "Moses" write Numbers before Pythagoras existed?

stephan huller · 01-16-2013, 05:05 PM

whatever. if your poker games are anything like your theories I am only interupting a daydream.

Robert Tulip · 01-16-2013, 05:48 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

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Are you implying that Jewish racism towards Egypt was so extreme that the Jews would not have dreamt of participating in any syncretic defilement?

:rolling: If I wasn't laughing I would take your reference to 'Jewish racism' as a sign of anti-Semitism. But I have seen your other posts and know better.

Stephan, I am appalled by your insinuation and your failure of comprehension.

You are the one who implied quite directly that links to Serapis would be seen as "defiling" and "monstrous" for Jews. The inference a reader could reasonably draw is that you think Jews would have stayed an entirely separate religious race even after 70 AD. That directly raised the implication by you of Jewish racism against Egypt, and my question to you about this is perfectly reasonable. I was asking. politely, why you raised this apparent slur, that Jews would not cooperate with others, when I suggested they could. How you could conjure talk of anti-Semitism from my assertion that Jews may have cooperated with Greeks and Egyptians in the construction of Jesus is surprising to say the least.

I was the one who said Jews would have engaged in dialogue, but your apparent superior knowledge of Jewish religion led you to imply I have not "even a semblance of passing knowledge of the Jewish religion" because I argued that some Jews might mix their religion with others! You play some low cards for reasons I cannot comprehend. Enjoy your laughter. Lets leave baseless comments about anti-Semitism out of the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephan Huller

RT: "The influx of Jewish refugees into Egypt post Titus created a need to synthesis their messianic mosaic midrash and the Serapian mythology. The result was the anointed saviour, Christ Jesus, an overlay of Jewish myth onto Serapis."

Have you ever met any Jews in your life? Have you even a semblance of passing knowledge of the Jewish religion? How do we get from a Law-abiding culture to one which embraces טָמֵא [defilement]? It isn't that there might be a grain of truth in this monstrous conception you are envisioning. There is perhaps a grain of truth in any false statement. But I am interested in hearing why the destruction of the temple would lead to the abandonment of Jewish law. Where in the Pentateuch do you see a requirement to have a temple?

Sheshbazzar · 01-16-2013, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Who used the single snake on a staff first?

Moses or the cult of Asclepius?

I doubt that we will ever be able to determine with any degree of certainty as both figures are lost in the mists of time and of mythology. And the snake in 'the tree of life' or on a stick (branch) of a tree motif is about as old as Mesopotamian civilization.

stephan huller · 01-16-2013, 06:41 PM

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You are the one who implied quite directly that links to Serapis would be seen as "defiling" and "monstrous" for Jews.

:rolling:

Yeah it's just me who suggests that. Everyone else 'knows' that the Pentateuch has very liberal notions of religious ecumenism. Why don't you invite some of your 'Jewish friends' over to worship at the feet of Acharya S the next time she's in town. See how that goes over.

Robert Tulip · 01-16-2013, 08:09 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

the Pentateuch has very liberal notions of religious ecumenism.

You imply that the illiberal theology of the Torah was sufficient to exclude the possibility that some Jews cooperated with Egyptians and Greeks to invent Jesus. That claim of ongoing Jewish exclusiveness is just silly. The Gospels do not accept this reading, as shown in the 'but I say unto you' critiques of Jewish tradition. Some Jews helped to mesh the midrash with the logos.

Many Jews are and were liberal. Just as not all Jews today are Torah Thumpers, very many Jews in the ancient world sought to assimilate to broader cultural traditions than their narrow mosaic heritage. As Paul said, 'in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek'. The Therapeuts led this syncretic effort between Jew, Greek and Egyptian, evolving Christ from Serapis.

mountainman · 01-16-2013, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Who used the single snake on a staff first?

Moses or the cult of Asclepius?

I doubt that we will ever be able to determine with any degree of certainty as both figures are lost in the mists of time and of mythology.

That may be so, but it may be we can try and arrive at some sort of relative probability concerning which was first.

Robert Grant states Asclepius was around in the time of Pythagoras.

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Pythagoras of Samos .... b. about 570 – d. about 495 BCE)

When was the Book of Numbers written containing Moses snake on a stick?

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Originally Posted by WIKI on the TORAH

Today the majority of academic scholars accept the theory that the Torah does not have a single author, and that its composition took place over centuries.[17] From the late 19th century there was a general consensus around the documentary hypothesis, which suggests that the five books were created c. 450 BCE by combining four originally independent sources, known as the Jahwist, or J (c. 900 BCE), the Elohist, or E (c. 800 BCE), the Deuteronomist, or D, (c. 600 BCE), and the Priestly source, or P (c. 500 BCE).[18] This general agreement began to break down in the late 1970s, and today there are many theories but no consensus, or even majority viewpoint

None of this really establishes the answer to the question I guess.
But it may indicate that the chances favour Asclepius as the precedent.

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01-16-2013, 04:57 PM	#94
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	If I wasn't playing poker I'd say stay on topic. Did "Moses" write Numbers before Pythagoras existed?

01-16-2013, 05:05 PM	#95
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	whatever. if your poker games are anything like your theories I am only interupting a daydream.

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