Kharakov

I prophecy that all of you that read these holy words will breathe!

Am I a prophet now?

Sheshonq

Uh, not quite.

1. "Might go as far as saying" - that is one interpretation of Hinduism. It is not the only one. And the variety of beliefs in Hinduism defies any short, succinct description.

2. Moreover, if there are substantial differences in how two groups of people view the "one true god", then what you have is, in effect, two deities. For example, the Lakota also have a "one true god" they call Wakan Tanka. Even though it is a single, all-powerful deity, the description (attributes, characteristics, actions, etc.) do not match the Hebrew god. You have, in effect, two different deities.

3. Finally, the point remains, even you don't like the example: modern believers in non-abrahamic religion X prove that deities in religion X must be real. That is the analog to the formula that arnoldo tossed out (without much thinking). The only question is how long it will take arnoldo to realize that his formula backfired in his face.

Sheshonq

I agree that Britain "gave away" land they didn't own.

No, Britain ignored its own guidelines and Jews immigrated far and above any limits.

1. I never agreed to that - in point of fact, it would depend upon whose frame of mind you were asking about. Planned by who? Britain? The WZO? Herzog? Who are you asking about when you say "planned"?

2. It doesn't matter whether or not it was planned. Your claim was that it was "opposed". Kicking the Arabs out, then allowing Jews to move in and settle the land is hardly an act of opposition. Your argument is broken.

You've misidentified my position, misunderstood the facts, and chased your own tail in a circle until you actually think that I agree with you.

You have truly poor reasoning skills.

Johnny Skeptic

No, my position is exactly the opposite, meaning that the Partition of Palestine was a self-fulfilled prophecy.

Where did the Jews get the military equipment and money from that enabled them to partition Palestine? Answer, 100% from Jews, Christians, and countries with predominantly Christian populations and governments, and yet you would have people believe that the Partition of Palestine had nothing to do with the Bible.

33 countries voted in favor of the Partition of Palestine, and 13 countries voted against it. Of the 33 countries that voted for it, every government except for one government, the government of Russia, was predominantly Christian. At that time, Russia was overjoyed to be receiving lots of aid from the U.S. for rebuilding purposes. Regarding the 13 countries that voted against the partition, the governments of 12 of the countries were non-Chrisitian. The Greek government voted against the partition, but that is easily explained by the fact that, as Wikipedia says, the majority of Greeks are nominal Christians. It would be quite difficult to find a better case of a bona fide self-fulfilled prophecy than the Partition of Palestine. Of course, the Partition of Palestine is an immediate failure because it does not include ALL of the land of Canaan as promised by Genesis 17:8.

When Abraham murdered the Canaanites and stole parts of Canaan from them, would you like to claim that that was not a self-fulfilled prophecy? Why didn't God give the Jews enough money to legally purchase Canaan from the Canaanites?

Now would you like to claim that the Bible did not have anything to do with anyone's motives regarding the Partition of Palestine?

If Jewish and Palestinian history had been reversed, and the Palestians had been persecuted by Hitler and other parties instead of Jews, are you going to tell us that the U.N. would have awarded control of Jerusalem to the Palestians, and that the U.S. would have approved of that? If so, where is your proof? If not, then I have proven that Jews would not occupy Jerusalem today if the Bible had not said that they would one day return to their homeland.

Johnny Skeptic

That is quite a fanciful tale. If you are right, then all of the military equipment and money that the Jews used to partition Palestine flew right into the hand of the Jews of their own accord.

If the Partition of Palestine was not a plan, then when 33 nations voted in favor of the partition, 32 of whose governments were predominantly Christian, the 33 nations voted in favor of the partition even though they had no plans for the partition to happen. Is that right?

Johnny Skeptic

However, if the God of the Bible does not exist, that is exactly what we would expect to find. No loving, rational God would ever go out of his way to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly creating doubt and confusion.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explain why humans have to do what God ought to be doing much of himself. Why would God frequently mimic the way that things would be if he did not exist, thereby needlessly causing doubt and confusion?

If the God of the Bible does not exist, there would be suspicious an unexplainable statistics regarding why people believe what they believe. Kosmin and Lachman wrote a book that is titled 'One Nation Under God.' Billy Graham endorses the book on the cover or on one of the inside pages. The book is well-documented. The authors show that the primary factors that influence religious beliefs in the U.S. are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, and age. The evidence shows that in the U.S., the percentage of women who are Christians is a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians. I forget what the exact percentage is, but I can find it if I need to. As far as I recall, the percentage difference is over 7%. It is important to note that every year, the percentage of women who are Christians is a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians. That is quite suspicious.

The authors show that elderly skeptics are much less likely to change their worldview than younger skeptics are, and that elderly Christians are much less likely to become skeptics than younger Christians are. If God exists, this means that he discriminates against elderly skeptics and younger Christians. If God does not exist, that explains why elderly people are much less likely to change their worldviews than younger people are. Again, if the God of the Bible exists, it is quite odd that he mimics that way that things would be if he did not exist.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the Gospel message was distributed entirely by humans. If God does exist, he is more concerned with HOW people hear about the Gospel message than he is with THAT they hear the Gospel message, and with mimicking the way that the Gospel message would be spread if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

We have a similar case regarding the distribution of food. James says that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person that his faith is dead, but God has refused to give food to millions of people who died of starvation. If God does not exist, that explains why all distribution of food is done by humans. If God does exist, then he is more concerned with HOW people get enough food to eat than he is with THAT people get enough food to eat, and with mimicking the way that food would be distributed if he does not exist. No loving, rational God would ever act like that.

Obviously, your convenient "God frequently uses men and nations for his own purposes" argument is fraudulent, and is exactly what would be the case if the God of the Bible does not exist.

You have still failed to explain why God would frequently choose to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist, thereby undermining his attempt to reasonably prove that he exists. No loving, rational God would ever go out of his way to mimic the ways that things would be if he did not exist. If a loving God exists, there is no way that it could be predicted that every year, the percentage of women in the U.S. who are Christians would be a good deal higher than the percentage of men who are Christians, and that the percentage of elderly skeptics who become Christians would be much smaller than the percentage of younger skeptics who become Christians, and that the percentage of younger Christians who become skeptics would be much larger than the percentage of elderly Christians who become skeptics. If a loving God exists, the odds against those things being the way that they are are astronomical. If the God of the Bible does not exist, that explains why the primary factors that determine why people believe what they believe are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, age, and time period.

Jack the Bodiless

How many times will you continue to make this statement when you can find no specific prophecy of the re-emergence of the modern state of Israel ANYWHERE in either Jewish or Christian scriptures?

Incidentally, as the example of ancient Greece has already been mentioned:

If Isreal's military success is proof of the existence of the Christian God (even though few Israelis are Christians: hmm, funny how that works), then how is the far more impressive success of Alexander the Great NOT proof of the existence of the Greek gods?

Alexander had no huge superpower backing him. He had no access to technologically-advanced weapons that his opponents could not manufacture. So the Greek gods must exist?
Yes, of course!

Ezekiel's Tyre prophecy: FALSE.
Ezekiel's Egypt prophecy: FALSE.
The Babylon prophecy (Isaiah and Jeremiah): FALSE.
THe Second coming of Jesus within one generation (various NT authors): FALSE.

Meanwhile:

Number of verifiably-successful prophecies in the Bible: ZERO.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: In the early part of the 2nd century, Trajan went to Palestine and killed 500,000 Jews. Why didn't God protect the Jews?

What exactly has God protected Jews from for thousands of years, possibly from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? It would not make any sense for God to protect the Jews from other humans and not also protect them from hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamies, plagues, droughts, and famines? If the God of the Bible does not exist, then that easily explains this situation.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: Some orthodox Jews agree with you about the Partition of Palestine, but reject Christianity. What is your message for them?

Why didn't Ezekiel mention Alexander?

arnoldo

Ok, geography, family,race,ethnicity,gender,age and time period determines why people believe what they believe. Does that also explain why YOU believe what you believe? :huh: