Vorkosigan

[QUOTE=DCHindley;4544531]The whole thing is a creation of the writer of Mark and is meant, like the other miracles at the beginning, to hint at the Passion and Death and Resurrection of Jesus. There is no develop from an earlier source and there is no coverup of any "messianic" activity on the part of some putative Jesus. The references are all internal to the story.

To wit: The demoniac is Jesus, who is bound. Jesus makes two passes at curing him (two trials of Jesus). Both cry out in a loud voice, making a statement imploring God/Jesus. The demoniac is cured and shows up in new clothing (the successful initiate, BTW), a reference to the young man in the empty tomb -- of course, the demoniac lives among the tombs. Doh! After that, he goes out to the gentiles and preaches. The passage recapitulates, in symbolic form, the Passion, Trial, Death, and Resurrection of Jesus, and the subsequent history of Christianity. Whoever wrote this wrote at a time when Christianity was spreading among the gentiles, in the second century.

The Demoniac is perhaps also a reference to Paul, who was released from his chains on the road to Damascus -- on which Gerasa lies -- and then went out, like the madman, to preach to the gentiles. Note that in either case the demoniac is beating himself with stones, a play on the word for son in hebrew (eben/ben).

The texture is overlaid and the demoniac is simultaneously Jesus, the successful initiate to the religion, and Paul (perhaps). The writer of Mark was a complex fellow, and need depend on some complex evolution to produce a complex story. I detest the way NT scholars are forever turning the writer of Mark into an idjit in order to make their transmission theories work.

Michael

Solo

Let me understand something, Michael: are you saying the structure of the story indicating Passion, Death and Resurrection of Jesus - which I agree is a Markan stamp - itself guarantees that Mark wrote it from scratch ?

Well, I think the Gerasa locale drastically reduces chances that pigs drowned in a nearby lake. So, it looks like they were added later. Now, if there were no pigs hurling themselves over a cliff, then the neighbours did not ask Jesus to leave. Right ? If yes, what in your mind excludes the possibility of another context for their request ? I take it, you did note that they were afraid seeing the man in his right mind, i.e. before they were told about the swine.

The demoniac asks to join Jesus but is given a preaching mission instead. How was his situation different from Bartimaeus who was allowed to join ? Think it possible that Mark "knew" that the difference between the two men was something called "faith".

Except for the dating I would almost buy this. But I think the parallels between the Gerasene demoniac and Lazarus are just too strong.

I take it you meant "did not need to depend on complex evolution". My question is this: Granted Mark needed "no help" from tradition to create his gospel, but what would he do - being the creative sort of a "complex fellow" -had he run across traditional stories (written material ?) about Jesus that struck him as naive and simple-minded ? Which is more likely: would he have ignored it or would he have cut it all up and rewritten it with a purposeful twist (if for no other reason then to "reveal" his gospel as the truth about the silly stories spread by someone else) ?

BTW, what do you reckon are the chances Mark did not come into contact with any traditions about Jesus ?

Jiri

gstafleu

After-the-fact problems with pigs disappearing into some depth weren't new in Jesus' time. Consider the following passage from Frazer's The Golden Bough:
Gerard Stafleu

Vorkosigan

If you're asking whether the global structure of Mark -- the way the end and beginning refer to each other -- indicates that its writer conceived of the text de novo, the answer is yes. I am not sure what you mean by "from scratch" since it is obvious that the writer is dependent on extant literary conventions and on the OT and Paul (and probably Josephus as well) for his literary invention.

I admit, I have never thought about the pigs being added later. I have to consider that -- it's an interesting solution to some of the problems of that pericope.

There are some oddities in the Bartimaeus sequence that make me suspect it is not from the original writer. The whole sequence from about 6.1 to 11.27 has been drastically altered, with pericopes added, deleted, and moved around. So I don't think the original writer "knew" about Bar-timaeus.

I can accept that, but since the inventors of the Lazarus story had read Mark.....

Yes.....

I have no way to know what the writer would have done. I can only tell you where the current tales in the Gospel come from. I don't think there is any prior material in Mark about Jesus except for what he is using from Paul. And that, I think, is used in a highly satirical way.

Zero, since the writer of Mark knew the majority of the authentic Pauline letters. Outside of them, there were no "Jesus traditions" except what was known generally in the culture about Messiahs, and what was known about the Jewish Messiah, and what texts were important to early Christians (Isaiah, Psalm 110, etc).

That's what I think, anyway.

Michael

Solo

I agree with you Mark's text was de novo. I have no illusions about most of the stories being straightforward inventions, or symbolizations of Mark's theological stance. You point to the dependence on OT, Paul, Josephus perhaps, and they may well be other mythical models that Mark availed himself of, Iliad-Odyssey and Romulus having been plausibly suggested.

All these however Mark would have used in a straighforward "conversion" into Jesus stories. When I said "from scratch", I meant free of other sources (such as Q) which dealt with Jesus as a figure (,or Jesus as a figure of speech,) prior to Mark.

What is your view on the Marcan-Q overlap ? How did Mark know John was preaching Jesus was going to baptize with holy spirit ? Where does the forty-day sojourn in the wilderness and temptation by Satan come from ? Did Luke and Matthew magically expand on Mark ?

Jiri

JoeWallack

http://www.amazon.com/gp/music/wma-p...571666-9029533

JW:
Thanks Jiri. The Style that Marks "Mark" throughout is Irony. Everything and everyone in "Mark" is subject to Irony including "Mark's" Jesus. Consistency is what gives weight to conclusions and since "Mark" consistently uses Irony throughout we can identify it in The Jewrassic Pork story to help deicide what was the Original composition.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_5

"1 And they came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes.

2 And when he was come out of the boat, straightway there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

3 who had his dwelling in the tombs: and no man could any more bind him, no, not with a chain;

4 because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been rent asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: and no man had strength to tame him.

5 And always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains, he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones.

6 And when he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshipped him;

7 and crying out with a loud voice, he saith, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, torment me not.

8 For he said unto him, Come forth, thou unclean spirit, out of the man.

9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many.

10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

11 Now there was there on the mountain side a great herd of swine feeding.

12 And they besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

13 And he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered into the swine: and the herd rushed down the steep into the sea, [in number] about two thousand; and they were drowned in the sea.

14 And they that fed them fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they came to see what it was that had come to pass.

15 And they come to Jesus, and behold him that was possessed with demons sitting, clothed and in his right mind, [even] him that had the legion: and they were afraid.

16 And they that saw it declared unto them how it befell him that was possessed with demons, and concerning the swine.

17 And they began to beseech him to depart from their borders.

18 And as he was entering into the boat, he that had been possessed with demons besought him that he might be with him.

19 And he suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go to thy house unto thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and [how] he had mercy on thee.

20 And he went his way, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men marvelled."


JW:
Note the high point of the Irony here [and the nice chiasm]:

13 And he gave them leave. And the unclean spirits came out, and entered into the swine: and the herd rushed down the steep into the sea, [in number] about two thousand; and they were drowned in the sea.
[Departed from the city]

14 And they that fed them fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they came to see what it was that had come to pass.
[Witness]

15 And they come to Jesus, and behold him that was possessed with demons sitting, clothed and in his right mind, [even] him that had the legion:
[Afraid becomes calm]

and they were afraid.
[calm becomes afraid]

16 And they that saw it declared unto them how it befell him that was possessed with demons, and concerning the swine.
[Witness]

17 And they began to beseech him to depart from their borders.
[Departed from the city]


JW:
"Mark" consistently has a Separationist Transfer method for his Irony and this story is a Prime example. Jesus has Exorcised the Fear from the Demonic who is now Calm. The Reaction of the Masses to this Transfer is that they are the ones who now become Afraid. This idea of Good/Bad spirit transfer comes right out of the David/Saul story. Similarly, Outside of the Inner Jewrassic Pork exorcism, in Reaction to Jesus removing the Demons from their midst, the Masses in return "exorcise" Jesus and remove him from their midst. The Jewrassic Pork element is so integral to this story that removing it as unoriginal would Be Like Taking a BLT and removing the Bacon.

"Matthew" of course had no use for this Irony since it wallows in contrived Fiction so he exorcised it from his version:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Matthew_8

"28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, there met him two possessed with demons, coming forth out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man could pass by that way.

29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

30 Now there was afar off from them a herd of many swine feeding.

31 And the demons besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, send us away into the herd of swine.

32 And he said unto them, Go. And they came out, and went into the swine: and behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep into the sea, and perished in the waters.

33 And they that fed them fled, and went away into the city, and told everything, and what was befallen to them that were possessed with demons.

34 And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought [him] that he would depart from their borders."

JW:
Note that "Matthew" has no where near the Irony that "Mark" has. "Matthew's" interest is only a miraculous story while "Matthew's" source, "Mark", only used a miraculous story for the Higher purpose of Irony.

"Luke" retains the basic Irony in her version because it is her Source but she does exorcise the "Messianic Secret" Irony at the end of the story:

Mark:
"19 And he suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go to thy house unto thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and [how] he had mercy on thee.

20 And he went his way, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men marvelled."

Jesus commands that the man Limit his testimony to only going home and talking about it which is about as limited as he could command. In contrast the man of course goes on a one man crusade in the Decapolis to promote Jesus and is so successful that "all men marvelled"

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Luke_8

"38 But the man from whom the demons were gone out prayed him that he might be with him: but he sent him away, saying,

39 Return to thy house, and declare how great things God hath done for thee. And he went his way, publishing throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done for him."

"Luke" greatly reduces the Ironic contrast.

Note that "Mark" also commonly uses the Amazed/Afraid Reaction of People to Jesus at the Beginning and End of stories to Mark them off as he does here:

"15 And they come to Jesus, and behold him that was possessed with demons sitting, clothed and in his right mind, [even] him that had the legion: and they were afraid.

16 And they that saw it declared unto them how it befell him that was possessed with demons, and concerning the swine.

17 And they began to beseech him to depart from their borders.

18 And as he was entering into the boat, he that had been possessed with demons besought him that he might be with him.

19 And he suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go to thy house unto thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and [how] he had mercy on thee.

20 And he went his way, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men marvelled."


JW:
Note that "Matthew" and "Luke" have no such Marking. Jiri, I think I've made it clear enough that it's more Likely that the Jewrassic Pork story is an original composition by "Mark" that subsequent Editing ("Matthew/Luke") Reduced rather than enhanced, that even Chris Weimer could understand.



Joseph

EGOTIST, n.
A person of low taste, more interested in himself than in me.

Megaceph, chosen to serve the State
In the halls of legislative debate,
One day with all his credentials came
To the capitol's door and announced his name.
The doorkeeper looked, with a comical twist
Of the face, at the eminent egotist,
And said: "Go away, for we settle here
All manner of questions, knotty and queer,
And we cannot have, when the speaker demands
To be told how every member stands,
A man who to all things under the sky
Assents by eternally voting 'I'."

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Vorkosigan

It demonstrates that there is no Q. I have a page on that in my Commentary (I discuss this on my Commentary).

There are lots of ways the writer of Mark might have known what John preached, but the most likely is that he made it up. Forty days is the usual length of time, but the scene has several possible origins.

I don't understand what you mean by "magically expand" on Mark....

JoeWallack

Run Away!

JW:
I Am in the process of building a detailed argument as to why "Mark's" Jewrassic Pork story is a clear geographical error at ErrancyWiki:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_5:1

A summary of the major points so far:

Textual witness for the original:

Sinaiticus and Vaticanus and a mixture of other Textual families indicate Gerasenes likely original.

Reaction to the original:

--"Matthew"

Vaticanus and other superior textual witness indicates Gadarenes likely original

--"Luke"

P75 and Vaticanus and a mixture of other Textual families indicate Gerasenes likely original.

--Patristic

Origen - Indicates that almost all manuscripts have "Gerasenes" and only a few have "Gadarenes".

Eusebius - Seems to agree with Origen and indicates that the location per the manuscripts is "Gerasenes".

Thus the earliest and quality Patristic evidence is that "Gerasenes" is likely original.

Geography of Gerasa inconsistent with story details:

The story requires people and pigs by the Sea of Galilee but Gerasa is about 35 miles away.

Josephus' has notorious stories with some of the same ReMarkable details which would be a potential source:

Common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:

1) Gerasa

2) Legion

3) Pigs

4) Two thousand

5) Drowned

Irony of Markan story as evidence of Fictional intent.


Summary of conclusion of Geographical error:

1) Evidence that "Gerasenes" is likely original:

Textual

Synoptic copying

Patristic

Difficult reading principle

Authority

2) Evidence that "Gerasenes" would be a Geographical error:

Geography inconsistent with story details

Scribal reaction

Patristic reaction

Synoptic reaction

Authority

Fictional intent of author

Everybody is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish.



Joseph

"What you don't see with your eyes, don't create with your mouth." - Jewish Proverb

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

DCHindley

Is this because I am dead, or because I was featured on those First Avenue billboards in Minneapolis?

Harvey Dubish

JoeWallack

JW:
For all you Steven Avery fans out there, here:

http://www.fundamentalforums.com/showthread.php?t=27829

Steven argues (with authority) that a Text with "Gerasenes" for Mark 5:1 is clearly in error. Amen. Halleluyah. They do say that the lord works in mysterious ways.



Joseph

Messianic Judaism - The process of removing anything from the Jewish Bible that does not refer to Jesus until there is nothing left.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page