Peter Kirby

Please define and describe what you imply by "martyr."

Then, please show that Paul and Kephas were martyrs.

best wishes,
Peter Kirby

rlogan

Goodness gracious.

Martyrdom is far more ancient than Christianity.

Daniel and Maccabees have martyrdom stories.

Do we really need to demonstrate all of the independent origins of this "dying for something" business?

devoid of logic.

There already were precedents, too numerous to even count. People who "died for something". Love, their god, their honor, etc...


In fact, you have it exactly backwards. The fiction of Jesus as a martyr is patched together out of HB passages, as has many times been demonstrated here, and the "sacrifice" of the innocent lamb for atonement is again a pre-existing religious theory.

No precedent whatsoever.

Ted Hoffman

Excellent Peter.
In addition, provide proof that (a) "there's an existing consensus that both Paul and Kephas died as martyrs" (in other words, cite four works of mainstream scholars that argue that Paul and Kephas were martyrs) and (b) how "dying as martyrs is not consistent with a MJ"

Thank you

Vorkosigan

In Mark Jesus goes to his death wrongly condemned. He goes through the experiences outline in Mark 13, dragged before governors, beaten in the Sanhedrin, etc. Mark's Jesus represents the believer himself, who became the adopted son of god, as Paul avers in Romans 8. Mark constantly presents an inside/outside boundary to the reader for him to cross, inviting him in but also holding him out. Sometimes the reader is invited to listen to a parable explanation, sometimes the explanation is given to the disciples, whom the reader could be one of....

The question is why Mark chose to frame his Jesus in this manner. Because Jesus was originally a martyr? But Mark does not know anything at all about Jesus. Mark's narrative is drawn from the OT and no oral tradition underpins it. The trials are fictions -- Weeden was just saying the other day on XTALK that he can demonstrate that Mark constructed the whole trial and arrest scene out of the Jesus Ben Ananias scene in Josephus; the Via Dolorosa is taken from Roman triumphs, and the Crucifixion and empty tomb are OT in origin. Mark as no traditions -- ergo, he knows nothing about Jesus' death; ergo, he does not know whether it was a martyrdom. Mark's Jesus speaks to his own time, in the first half of the second century, and to that reader, who might undergo martyrdom. In other words, Mark's Jesus is based on the believer, not vice versa. So there's no impetus from that Jesus narrative until after it is written.

Pliny's account dates from the second century, Yuri.


No idea, don't care. All I know is that martyrdom is a later phenomenon of Xtianity, so I don't worry about the details too much, at least as far as the HJ goes. They prove nothing one way or another.

Can you give several arguments, or point me to same, for Lucan priority? Maybe it is time to hash that out....

Vorkosigan

Regards,

Yuri[/QUOTE]

S.C.Carlson

Hmm, this reminds me of Schweitzer's criticisms of the 19th century Jesus Quest.

andrewcriddle

Don't we have similar ideas in Paul to those found later in Mark ? eg Philippians 3:10-11 Andrew Criddle

NOGO

Yuri,

If anyone is willing to die for someone else then they know this person well or at least know the cause which motivated their death. Common cause is essential I believe. If Jesus was a model, then Christians must have been very familiar with his life and ideas.

It seems to me that the exact opposite can be demonstrated.
Despite all his Christian preaching Paul does not care to quote a simgle line from Jesus, claims that all his knowledge about Jesus comes from the Jewish scriptures and claims that he gets messages directly from God about his mission.

I know you are going to give me the "evidence from silence" bit but seeing that other epistles are also silent on Jesus' life you really have a big problem trying to convince people that Jesus' life was the inspiration for martyrs.

Vorkosigan

Sure. And I am about as certain as can be that Mark knows Paul. But where in Paul is there any detailed exposition of Jesus' death? In Paul, is Jesus' death a martyr's death -- a religious believer's death?

andrewcriddle

I agree it is less explicit in Paul than Mark.

However in 1 Peter we seem to have very close parallels to Mark eg chapter 2 vs 20-23 (There are other significant parallels )

IMO 1 Peter is both 1st century and independent of Mark. This is obviously open to question but IMO it would be difficult to combine a 2nd century date for Mark with dependence of 1 Peter on Mark.

Hebrews chapter 5 v 7 may also be relevant (Plus other passages in Hebrews about Jesus as an example).

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan

Hmm....I've never studied the relationship between 1 Peter and Mark. Do you have any recommendations on that score?

Vorkosigan