Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 11-25-2007, 10:00 PM

The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles
Translated by Douglas M. Parrott and R. McL.Wilson

If anyone is interested, it occurs to me that
this text purportedly written in the mid-fourth
century (although possibly copied from earlier
versions) was in fact written by a non-christian
author.

Any takers?

BTW, does Eusebius mention this text?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Toto · 11-26-2007, 12:02 AM

Why would a non-Christian write this, or do you think this was added?

Quote:

He said to Peter, "Peter!" And Peter was frightened, for how did he know that his name was Peter? Peter responded to the Savior, "How do you know me, for you called my name?" Lithargoel answered, "I want to ask you who gave the name Peter to you?" He said to him, "It was Jesus Christ, the son of the living God. He gave this name to me." He answered and said, "It is I! Recognize me, Peter." He loosened the garment, which clothed him - the one into which he had changed himself because of us - revealing to us in truth that it was he.

Huon · 11-26-2007, 12:44 AM

There is a page on Wiki about "Gospel_of_Peter". It is a Christian gospel, considered heretical by the victorious mainstream.

mountainman · 11-26-2007, 03:31 AM

Hi Toto,

Thanks for the question, and no I dont think we need
to hypothesise interim interpolations on the basis of
it provenance. It's been underground for over 1600 years.

I am currently attempting to write a brief article on the
argument that this text was written by a non-christian.
Hopefully I will have it ready soon, and will post it.

But to briefly answer your question below...
There is certainly an inference in the story
that when Lithargoel reveals himself to Peter

"It is I! Recognize me, Peter."
He loosened the garment, which clothed him -
the one into which he had changed himself
because of us - revealing to us in truth
that it was he."

Is he not also revealing himself as Lithargoel,
returning to his home city at the gates of which
Peter and the Apostles were waiting. They were
waiting there to be shown inside the city to
find Lithargoel. When he leaves the city to do
some healing with an apprentice, they do not
recognise him.

Peter is presented as the student.
Lithargoel is presented as the master.

The rest of the codex binding this first text
contains 7 non-christian dissertations, a
number by Hermes, and one between Hermes
and Asclepius.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Why would a non-Christian write this, or do you think this was added?

Quote:

He said to Peter, "Peter!" And Peter was frightened, for how did he know that his name was Peter? Peter responded to the Savior, "How do you know me, for you called my name?" Lithargoel answered, "I want to ask you who gave the name Peter to you?" He said to him, "It was Jesus Christ, the son of the living God. He gave this name to me." He answered and said, "It is I! Recognize me, Peter." He loosened the garment, which clothed him - the one into which he had changed himself because of us - revealing to us in truth that it was he.

mountainman · 11-26-2007, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

There is a page on Wiki about "Gospel_of_Peter". It is a Christian gospel, considered heretical by the victorious mainstream.

Hi Huon,

There are a few different texts attributed to Peter
or about Peter, the Gospel of Peter and this one,
Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles, is a separate
one, partof the Nag Hammadi bundle of text books.

Early christian writings presents this information:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas M. Parrott writes (The Anchor Bible Dictionary, v. 5, pp. 264)

This tractate is the first in the miscellaneous collection of Sahidic Coptic tractates comprising Nag Hammadi Codex VI. For all its brevity (12 pages) it is a remarkably complex document. The first half consists mainly of an account, with heavy allegorical overtones, about a pearl merchant who attracts the poor but is shunned by the rich, and who turns out not to have the pearl he is hawking; it is available only to those willing to journey to his city. The pearl merchant's name is Lithargoel, which means, according to the text, a lightweight, glistening stone (5.16-18) (Wilson and Parrott 215 n.). The account takes place in on island city identified simply as "Habitation" (the Coptic for which may be a translation of the Greek word meaning "inhabited world").

and also ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parrott states on its dating (op. cit., p. 265)

The earliest portion of the tractate - the allegory - probably should be dated not later than the middle of the 2d century, because of the affinity with Herm. Sim., which is dated in the mid-century or before. The tractate as a whole, then, may have been put together in its present form toward the end of the 2d century, or early in the 3d.

The C14 report (for gThomas binding) stated 348 CE
so that the entire bundle could have been stashed
in the mid-fourth century.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Huon · 11-26-2007, 07:24 AM

My mistake, sorry.

Huon · 11-27-2007, 01:09 AM

There is a tradition of wandering preachers in the Christianity. Jesus, by one of his many aspects, can be seen as a wandering preacher. (This aspect is only one of the many contradictory aspects of that character). In Western Europe, there is also a tradition of hermits, having abandoned the world, and living in a caban, or in a cave, and eating berries, or what is given to them by the local peasants (note : latin "paganus" becomes english "peasant" !

).

In France, many places are called Herm, or Lerm, or Lherm, for that reason. A legendary hermit lived there, usually between the 5th and the 10th century, and healed some sicknesses.

In Egypt, and more generally Asia Minor, there was the same tradition, of hermits living in the desert. The stylites were sitting on top of a pillar (in full sun ?). I remember the name of a Simeon Stylite, but I do not remember what he did.

Of course, this sort of Christianity cannot be anything but marginal.

Edit :
How could I forget Saint Emilion ???? Hermit of the 8th century, came near Bordeaux from South Brittany, near Nantes. In his cave, transformed into a monolithic church, there is a stone, not too big, perhaps 50x50x70 cm. If a woman sits on this stone, she will become fertile, and will have children...

mountainman · 11-27-2007, 01:13 PM

Hey Huon,

Nice bit on "christian hermits". My recommended reference
for an introduction to this species of the tribe of christians
is this from Momigliano:

But to get back on topic here, another question
has occurred to me to ask here. I'd like to know
why the title of the text contains twelve apostles.

Were there not according to legend in fact twelve apostles?
So should it not be Peter and the Eleven Apostles?
Do you think someone could not count?

Why the arithmetic anomaly?
Can anyone provide a reason?
Has anyone asked this Q before?

Thanks for any info.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Toto · 11-27-2007, 01:27 PM

There is the reference to Peter and "the twelve" in the list of appearances in 1 Corinthians.

No one knows the origin of "the twelve." There is speculation that it refers to a specific group known as "the twelve", which might vary in actual number.

mountainman · 12-04-2007, 05:11 AM

Additionally, there is a third reference
in the text (URL above):

Quote:

We prostrated ourselves on the ground and worshipped him. We comprised eleven disciples.

This neither agrees with the mainstream tally of twelve,
nor the ms title (Peter + 12 = 13).

So what we have is either
11 or 12 or 13 apostles.
Why would that be?

Does anyone else prostrate themselves in the NT?
Does this verb exist in the canonical literature?
Why would we have a story about either
11 or 12 or 13 prostrating apostles?

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

11-25-2007, 10:00 PM	#1
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Was the Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles written by a non christian? The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles Translated by Douglas M. Parrott and R. McL.Wilson If anyone is interested, it occurs to me that this text purportedly written in the mid-fourth century (although possibly copied from earlier versions) was in fact written by a non-christian author. Any takers? BTW, does Eusebius mention this text? Best wishes, Pete Brown

11-27-2007, 01:13 PM	#8
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Why Peter + 12 (11?) and Arnaldo Momigliano on "christian hermits" Hey Huon, Nice bit on "christian hermits". My recommended reference for an introduction to this species of the tribe of christians is this from Momigliano: But to get back on topic here, another question has occurred to me to ask here. I'd like to know why the title of the text contains twelve apostles. Were there not according to legend in fact twelve apostles? So should it not be Peter and the Eleven Apostles? Do you think someone could not count? Why the arithmetic anomaly? Can anyone provide a reason? Has anyone asked this Q before? Thanks for any info. Best wishes, Pete Brown

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-26-2007, 12:44 AM	#3
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	There is a page on Wiki about "Gospel_of_Peter". It is a Christian gospel, considered heretical by the victorious mainstream.

11-26-2007, 07:24 AM	#6
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	My mistake, sorry.

11-27-2007, 01:09 AM	#7
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	There is a tradition of wandering preachers in the Christianity. Jesus, by one of his many aspects, can be seen as a wandering preacher. (This aspect is only one of the many contradictory aspects of that character). In Western Europe, there is also a tradition of hermits, having abandoned the world, and living in a caban, or in a cave, and eating berries, or what is given to them by the local peasants (note : latin "paganus" becomes english "peasant" ! ). In France, many places are called Herm, or Lerm, or Lherm, for that reason. A legendary hermit lived there, usually between the 5th and the 10th century, and healed some sicknesses. In Egypt, and more generally Asia Minor, there was the same tradition, of hermits living in the desert. The stylites were sitting on top of a pillar (in full sun ?). I remember the name of a Simeon Stylite, but I do not remember what he did. Of course, this sort of Christianity cannot be anything but marginal. Edit : How could I forget Saint Emilion ???? Hermit of the 8th century, came near Bordeaux from South Brittany, near Nantes. In his cave, transformed into a monolithic church, there is a stone, not too big, perhaps 50x50x70 cm. If a woman sits on this stone, she will become fertile, and will have children...

11-27-2007, 01:27 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There is the reference to Peter and "the twelve" in the list of appearances in 1 Corinthians. No one knows the origin of "the twelve." There is speculation that it refers to a specific group known as "the twelve", which might vary in actual number.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.