Photocrat

>> I have no idea whether Harrington just goofed in his zealousness or if he was truly lying.

> Well, he is a theist, so they are not mutually exclusive possibilities.....

I would point out that since zeal is by no means exclusive to theists, the two aren't mutually exclusive for non-theists, either.

But yes, I believe that we all slip up from time to time (myself included, obviously).

[Like just now when I edited this to correct a typo... d'oh!]

Vinnie

Montgomery is just doing what the creationists do: selling lies. Deliberately or not, there is no excuse for his blatant stupidity. Especially when a lot of believers read his books and treat him as an authority.

Vinnie

Steven Carr

CARR
> Well, he is a theist, so they are not mutually exclusive possibilities.....

PHOTOCRAT
I would point out that since zeal is by no means exclusive to theists, the two aren't mutually exclusive for non-theists, either.

CARR
I was rather tongue in cheek there, but Montgomery is supposed to know better than the standard he came up with, in a book praised by a bigwig in the Society of Christian Philosophers (Craig Hazen)

Haran

I'm serious. Find his email him and ask him nicely (i.e. without accusing him of lying) with what you found to be contrary to evidence and ask why he stated what he did. It would be interesting to see his reply, especially if there is something we have overlooked. If not, then he may simply say he made a mistake.

It beats calling people liars and sellers of lies...

Steven Carr

Actually I thought he was long dead, but he has not updated his website with news of his death.

His website says 'The name of John Warwick Montgomery deserves to be mentioned alongside of C. S. Lewis and Francis Schaeffer as one of the 20th century's most articulate defenders of historic Christianity.'

Surprising Haran has not heard of him.

(I'll look up nicely in the dictionary. The word does ring a bell)

Here is my open letter to Professor Montgomery.

Dear Professor Montgomery,

I was reading your article http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar1.htm

You write

'How good are these New Testament records? They handsomely fulfill the historian's requirements of transmissional reliability (their texts have been transmitted accurately from the time of writing to our own day), internal reliability (they claim to be primary-source documents and ring true as such), and external reliability (their authorships and dates are backed up by such solid extrinsic testimony as that of the early second-century writer Papias, a student of John the Evangelist, who was told by him that the first three Gospels were indeed written by their traditional authors). '

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/papias.html is the writings of Papias ,

Eusebius writes 'Thus wrote Irenaeus. Moreover, Papias himself, in the introduction to his books, makes it manifest that he was not himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles; but he tells us that he received the truths of our religion from those who were aquainted with them....'

Surely Papias was not told anything by John the Evangelist.

And Papias never mentions 'Luke' or 'Gospel', so how did John the Evangelist that the first three Gospels were indeed written by their tradional authors?

You also write 'After the rise of liberal biblical criticism, doubt was expressed as to the historicity of Pontius Pilate, since he is mentioned even by pagan historians only in connection with Jesus' death.'

Surely Philo's mentions of Pilate are not in connection with the death of Jesus?

Can you name anybody who expressed doubt as to the historicity of Pontius Pilate?


Yours sincerely,
Steven Carr

------------------------------------
I shall, of course, publish his reply.

Haran

Why? I haven't read everything, especially if it dates back to Lewis' time. I'm not generally in the habit of reading "apologists" anyway. For details, I'd sooner turn to a scholar in the appropriate specialized field...

I look forward to the answer your email receives, whatever it might be.

Haran

Coulda fooled me...

Vinnie

What is wrong with calling a spade a spade???

Vinnie

Doctor X

It is not politically correct . . . they prefer "Pointed Manual Implement of Soil Transportation."

--J.D.

Vinnie

Ah...political correctness can go firetruck itself.

I'll play along though. Montgomery is an ateles belzebuth hybridus!