Sheshbazzar

I do not often quote myself, but there was a point I missed bringing out in an earlier post and it is much more efficient to simply repeat the argument with the added point in that context, so bear with me if most of this is already familiar, I'll place the additional material in color.

They say we are nuts ....but in matter after matter they fail to confront and deal with the actual content of this text.

Philo describes these Theraputae as though 'they' and 'their' religious practices are -alien- to him and his religious practices.

Why would he do that consistently throughout this entire text if he viewed them simply as being fellow Jews practicing the very same Jewish religion as himself?

Its like he were a visitor reporting on the happy fruits of Jonestown circa '77.

Which introduces another thought, -did- Philo ever actually go to out there 'beyond the Mareotic lake' and personally meet with these people?

The way the text is composed, I find it very doubtful. He mentions no personal experiences among them, and gives not the name of a single person or leader met. ....and yet he admires them so much?

The total lack of personal pronouns such as 'I', 'we', and 'us' in 'VC' is very telling that Philo did not 'identify' himself with these Threraputae, and likely never had any actual personal experience, contact, or social intercourse with this group (if they even actually existed)

I tend to think what we are seeing in "VC" is nothing more highly embellished and fictionalized hearsay, or pure invention.
There may have been Jews out there but it appears that they were strangers to Philo.

stephan huller

This is what's wrong with this discussion. It reminds me of saying. The sky is blue. The ocean is blue. Therefore the sky is an ocean. The fact is that - if they were monks - Philo might not have been celibate but could have admired the group nonetheless. He might also have been prevented from joining the group because of geography (i.e. he would have to have moved to the lakefront resort). There are countless scenarios that one could envision why he would refer to a Jewish group in the third person. Josephus does it with respect to the Sadducees and the Essenes. Why is thinking so difficult for members of this forum?

aa5874

If Philo was NOT a Therapeutae then it is not logical that he would invent them.

There is nothing to gain by writing fiction in such a way that people can detect it.

Philo claimed the Therapeutae were in EVERY district of Egypt, especially in Alexandria and around the Mareotic lake this would have been rather easy to confirm or deny.

Philo even described their houses, how they lived and what they read.

Philo would have to be a complete idiot to invent such a sect in such a way that people could go to the location and expose him as a liar.

Sheshbazzar

How would he know?
Its NOT simply the use of third person address, but the evident indicators that he had no personal experience with this group.
There is no 'I took my journey around the Mareotic lake', or 'there I was met by Avram ben'Yosif', or 'thus having ate, we sang psalms at midnight'.

Not one bit of the language that would be employed by someone telling of something they were personally experienced in.

aa5874

Again, you post a load of BS.

You employ the very same logical fallacy that the sky is blue--the ocean is blue--therefore the sky is the ocean.

You claim Philo was Jewish--that Philo the Jew wrote about the Therapeutae therefore the Therapeutae were Jewish.

Examine your own post #401 of January 28th 2013.

You have exposed that you employ logical fallacies.

Now, the Therapeutae were NOT just by the Mareotic lake. They were all over Egypt.

Philo claimed the Therapeutae were in EVERY DISTRICT of Egypt and especially Alexandria.

Philo lived in Alexandria.

On the Contemplative Life Please, we have been through this many times. Philo's Therapeutae were NEVER identified as living in Judea or Jews.

People who claim the Therapeutae were Jews employed a host of logical fallacies.

Sheshbazzar

You are expecting consistency or logic out of religion?
You know better than that by now.

But a fact of the ancient world is that most of its people were not well traveled or educated back then, most would never get 50 miles beyond where they were born, much less to fabled Alexandria Egypt, and that La La land ...'which is beyond the Mareotic lake'.

If Philo was composing this to inspire his fellow Jews to emulate these admirable, saintly 'Alexandrian Theraputae' ascetic and pentacotal practices, their actual existence or ability to be located would be secondary to getting people to believe that this way of life was the highest attainment of Judaism, and that they ought to be working at modeling their lives and communal practices on this (invented) example.

The NT uses the same trick with its 'Bereans' -who were were more noble than those in Thessalonica'. No one ever runs off to Berea to find out what these Bereans actually do. But hundreds of millions reading those words are motivated by them, to try to become noble 'Bereans' themselves.

The trick in such compositions is to get people to believe the propaganda is true, even Jews living right in Alexandria with Philo might 'buy' the story enough to start trying to follow the Utopian example, they wouldn't be particularly concerned that none of their neighbors were, they would be trying to get their neighbors to.

spin

Beware!

:horsecrap:

To get beyond the Mareotic Lake you have to go at least ten or twenty miles.

Clivedurdle

Might Philo or someone have been playing a game of which there is a recent example?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002...ion.umbertoeco

aa5874

I expect you to produce evidence for your claims. Please refrain from accusing Philo of writing fiction when you have NO evidence. Certainly, you would NOT be pleased if other persons accuse you of writing fiction without a shred of evidence.

Again, you seem not to remember that the Roman Empire was NOT just 50 miles wide. You seem to forget that there were THOUSANDS UPON THOUSAND of Soldiers moving throughout the Roman Empire and there were also Thousands of non Roman Soldiers.

There was a lot of movement in the 1st century. Philo himself was in Rome. A TRIP of over a thousand miles from Alexandria.

Again, your assertion does NOT make sense. Jews did live in Alexandria so Philo would have to be a complete idiot to expose himself as a liar to inspire them.

You seem to forget that Philo had inspired the Jews with his writings on the Essenes in "Apology to the Jews" and Every Good Man is Free".

Sheshbazzar

I expect Philo intended his De vita contemplativa to be sold far beyond a twenty mile radius. His wish would be for this propaganda piece to be read by those in Rome, those in Damascus, those in Macedonia, and throughout the Mediterranean basin, and inspired by this sterling example, all of Judaism begin to observe that 50 day Sunday 'sabbath' cycle like these exemplary saints.