maryhelena

Yes, lots of issue with the Toledot Yeshu story - but like that mountain that some people just love to climb - this puzzle is also a challenge. As is, I suppose, just about everything to do with the search for early christian origins....So, while scaling the heights might not be for me - I'm quite happy to play in the mud....

Duvduv

Personally I have my own doubts that the author(s) of the Toledoth was even a practicing Jew altogether. It is entirely possible that it was written as a tract to be used against Jews centuries later than usually identified, even by a Jew who converted to Christianity.

In any event, the underlying story is derived from the Talmud, which considered this obscure person worthy of a relatively brief mention from the 1st century BCE. If the Talmud were simply creating a parody to malign Christianity when the Talmud was sealed, it could have done a more thorough job. As it is, all that is similar with the NT Jesus is his parents and his being executed. Not the claims about him, not about his disciples, not about his travels.

maryhelena

A parody? And it's placed in 90 b.c.?

As with the gospel JC story, a developing story re birth narratives, from Herod the Great to Quirinius, it's likely the Toledot has had some developments along the way. What does seem to be fixed is a birth in the time of Alexander Jannaeus and a death in the time of Queen Helene. That's my focus. 90 b.c. to when?

gLuke places Lysanias of Abilene in a time slot with Pilate - historical figures with mismatched time slots. I'm running with the idea that the Toledot Yeshu story is doing something similar. gLuke runs from 40 b.c. to around 30 c.e. (70 years of Hasmonean and Herodian history). If the identity of Queen Helene can be demonstrated - i.e. this Queen in the Toledot Yeshu is not the wife of Alexander Jannaeus but a later Queen that has been linked to Alexander Jannaeus re the birth and death of the character of Yeshu (who, like JC is a literary construct) then a wider historical time slot for this story is available.

As it stands, with a 90 b. c. birth of the Yeshu figure - and around a 30 c.e. death for the gospel JC - we are looking at 120 years of Hasmoneon and Jewish history. History that is the backbone to the creation of the two literary figures of Yeshu and JC.

What that is indicating is that the literary Yeshu figure is referencing a much earlier time period than the gospel JC. Two literary figures, two historical time frames - running to 120 years of Hasmonean and Herodian history.

To assume that the Yeshu story is a parody of the JC story is to miss the boat re literary 'evidence'; evidence that could be of value in searching for early christian origins.

stephan huller

Why if Queen Helena of Adiabene is our only known Jewish queen named Helena is she not the most likely candidate for the narrative? The rabbinical accounts about Jesus are problematic. It would be like speaking about having a Nation of Islam reference to 'President Washington' living at the time of Columbus. Since there is only one 'President Washington' and the source of the narrative is utterly unreliable George Washington is still the only real possibility. Why are we wasting time on this?

stephan huller

This is thread is a waste of time. http://books.google.com/books?id=Vxs...ene%22&f=false

Maybe because 'Helena' appears in your name you are secretly trying to claim that you are this queen.

maryhelena

Stephan - it's my time - if you think you are wasting your time on this thread - be my guest - and move elsewhere....

maryhelena

Stephan - so it's back to the personal remarks now.....that is unacceptable...:angry:

Duvduv

It could be only because the text authored by whomever is filled with errors, contradictions and anachronisms, so it can't be taken all that seriously even on this one point. No one is forcing you to participate in this thread as far as I know. So what do you care?

outhouse

this is like trying to find historicity in a superman comic book


PULLLEASE

Duvduv

Quite right. That's just what I was thinking on the subject of the First Apology of Justin.