Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 06-09-2010, 06:26 AM

Quote:

the worship of Mithra, the Iranian god of the sun, justice, contract, and war in pre-Zoroastrian Iran. Known as Mithras in the Roman Empire during the 2nd and 3rd centuries ad, this deity was honoured as the patron of loyalty to the emperor. After the acceptance of Christianity by the emperor Constantine in the early 4th century, Mithraism rapidly declined.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...6080/Mithraism

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History

Before Zoroaster (6th century bc or earlier), the Iranians had a polytheistic religion, and Mithra was the most important of their gods. First of all, he was the god of contract and mutual obligation. In a cuneiform tablet of the 15th century bc that contains a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni, Mithra is invoked as the god of oath. Furthermore, in some Indian Vedic texts the god Mitra (the Indian form of Mithra) appears both as “friend” and as “contract.” The word mitra may be translated in either way, because contracts and mutual obligation make friends. In short, Mithra may signify any kind of communication between men and whatever establishes good relations between them. Mithra was called the Mediator. Mithra was also the god of the sun, of the shining light that beholds everything, and, hence, was invoked in oaths. The Greeks and Romans considered Mithra as a sun god. He was probably also the god of kings. He was the god of mutual obligation between the king and his warriors, and, hence, the god of war. He was also the god of justice, which was guaranteed by the king. Whenever men observed justice and contract, they venerated Mithra.

The most important Mithraic ceremony was the sacrifice of the bull.

Opinion is divided as to whether this ceremony was pre-Zoroastrian or not. Zoroaster denounced the sacrifice of the bull, so it seems likely that the ceremony was a part of the old Iranian paganism. This inference is corroborated by an Indian text in which Mitra reluctantly participates in the sacrifice of a god named Soma, who often appears in the shape of a white bull or of the moon. On the Roman monuments, Mithra reluctantly sacrifices the white bull, who is then transformed into the moon. This detailed parallel seems to prove that the sacrifice must have been pre-Zoroastrian. Contract and sacrifice are connected, since treaties in ancient times were sanctioned by a common meal.

The parallels with Islam are also striking.

Roger Pearse · 06-09-2010, 10:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

the worship of Mithra, the Iranian god of the sun, justice, contract, and war in pre-Zoroastrian Iran. Known as Mithras in the Roman Empire ...

That article is unscholarly, I'm afraid. It looks like all the old rubbish I thought we'd seen the back of.

This is the second time I have seen it linked to, and it seems to have appeared online recently. Are EB accepting amateur contributions or something now?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto · 06-09-2010, 12:15 PM

The "Article History" tab indicates that Shiveta Singh produced the content in 2008. Another tab indicates that EB is emulating Wikipedia - anyone can suggest an edit and become a "content editor" if they like you.

Roger Pearse · 06-09-2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The "Article History" tab indicates that Shiveta Singh produced the content in 2008. Another tab indicates that EB is emulating Wikipedia - anyone can suggest an edit and become a "content editor" if they like you.

Thanks. Of course people quoting the URL are relying on the reputation of Britannica.

mountainman · 06-11-2010, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

the worship of Mithra, the Iranian god of the sun, justice, contract, and war in pre-Zoroastrian Iran. Known as Mithras in the Roman Empire during the 2nd and 3rd centuries ad, this deity was honoured as the patron of loyalty to the emperor. After the acceptance of Christianity by the emperor Constantine in the early 4th century, Mithraism rapidly declined.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...6080/Mithraism

Quote:

History

Before Zoroaster (6th century bc or earlier), the Iranians had a polytheistic religion, and Mithra was the most important of their gods..

I wonder whether all this stuff started in India>

Mitra (Vedic)

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This article is about the Vedic deity Mitra. For other divinities with related names, see the general article Mitra.

Mitra
morning sun, the oath, loyalty and friendship
Devanagari मित्र
Sanskrit Transliteration mitrá

Mitra (Sanskrit Mitrá) is an important divinity of Indic culture, and the patron divinity of honesty, friendship, contracts and meetings. He is a figure of the Rigveda, distinguished by a relationship to Varuna, the protector of ṛtá.

Together with the Zoroastrian divinity Mithra (Miθra), Mitra descends from a Proto-Indo-Iranian *mitra, "contract". While Mitra and Mithra share many characteristics, they developed independently following the prehistorical split of the Indo-Iranians, and should not be equated with one another. Mitra and Mithra should also not be confused with Roman Mithras, who – although nominally inheriting his name from Iranian Mithra – is a product of Roman thought,

rcscwc · 06-11-2010, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...6080/Mithraism

I wonder whether all this stuff started in India>

Mitra (Vedic)

Quote:

This article is about the Vedic deity Mitra. For other divinities with related names, see the general article Mitra.

Mitra
morning sun, the oath, loyalty and friendship
Devanagari मित्र
Sanskrit Transliteration mitrá

Mitra (Sanskrit Mitrá) is an important divinity of Indic culture, and the patron divinity of honesty, friendship, contracts and meetings. He is a figure of the Rigveda, distinguished by a relationship to Varuna, the protector of ṛtá.

Together with the Zoroastrian divinity Mithra (Miθra), Mitra descends from a Proto-Indo-Iranian *mitra, "contract". While Mitra and Mithra share many characteristics, they developed independently following the prehistorical split of the Indo-Iranians, and should not be equated with one another. Mitra and Mithra should also not be confused with Roman Mithras, who – although nominally inheriting his name from Iranian Mithra – is a product of Roman thought,

Mithra is congruent with Mitra of RV. There he is Sun God. Present Zoroshtrians called Parsis are found mostly in India. Their ancient scriptures were incomprehensible even to themselves till its language was acknowledged nearly the same as RV language.

The founder Zarathrushta [as they call him] is the same as Jaruth of RV. He was a priest of Agni, the Fire god and migrated to "lawless" west [Iran] and founded his own cult. Parsis are Sun and Fire worshippers. Not surprising, Mitra is quite a deity in Parsi cult.

This Mithra got transliterated as Mithra by Romans or whoever.

Jarth was born of an tllicit, out of wedlock sexual intercourse between Surya, the Sun god, and a woman [forgot, but cann get it]. But at his birth Sutya prophecied:

Just as we broke the Vedic rules, so will our son. But he will be a famous and a great person.

Get a parallel to Original Sin and a Son of God rolled into one?

His cult has duality of good and evil built into it, which is not there in RV.

Factoid: Mitra is mentioned 464 times in RV alone.

rcscwc · 06-12-2010, 09:41 PM

And, Mitra being God, could not be crucified. As for Zarathrushtra, there is record or Parsi tradition of his being crucified and shedding his scared blood.

rcscwc · 06-13-2010, 05:24 AM

CORRECTION

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcscwc

And, Mitra being God, could not be crucified. As for Zarathrushtra, there is record or Parsi tradition of his being crucified and shedding his scared blood.

And, Mitra being God, could not be crucified. As for Zarathrushtra, there is NO record or Parsi tradition of his being crucified and shedding his scared blood

avi · 06-13-2010, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Clive - let's keep this thread narrowly focussed on the inscription mentioned in the opening post. Other discussion fits in better in another thread. Thanks.

I vigorously protest the administrative action splitting off the "off-topic" discussion introduced by Clive Durdle.

Not only was Clive's post ON-TOPIC, it was an ESSENTIAL component of the discussion.

Let us back up, for just a moment, and retrace, shall we, the discussion thus far.

Andrew commenced a new thread, on the topic of Mithraism, a subject about which, I knew absolutely NOTHING at all, until AFTER I read Clive's informative post.

In his initial post on this thread, Andrew gave us a link to an earlier discussion on Mithraism, and its potential relationship, or not, to the development of Christianity.

In that thread, we find the following discussion, which I offer as my evidence of the kind of "OFF-TOPIC" nonsense, that sometimes goes on in this forum:

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=253302&page=5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Post 109, andrewcriddle

I should have mentioned the inscription from the Santa Prisca Mithraeum
You saved us by shedding the ?eternal? blood
et nos servasti ?eternali? sanguine fuso.

It is suggestive and evocative, but unclear as to exactly what it means (or even says)

Ok, this strikes me as a reasonable, and informative, and useful, post on the forum. But then, we get this:

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Originally Posted by Post 110, Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

And if their {Freke and Gandy} motive were to make money, they would have done better to start an evangelical church and faith healing ministry and tell people to give them 10% of their income.

Or sell porn books, perhaps....

These two comments from two senior members of the forum, may indeed be pertinant to some of the commentary submitted by other posters, however, one must ask, how are these two comments relevant to the issue of Mithraism, and its influence or not, on Christianity?

My point is this:
Clive's commentary on Mithraism may have been ill chosen, if one thinks that Encyclopedia Britannica is relatively incredible, and that may well be the case, I don't know, however, Clive's comments are most certainly ON TOPIC.

Splitting them away makes absolutely no sense, for now they simply dangle, meaningless.

In other words, please reintegrate his commentary, there is absolutely no rational reason for removing them.

1. they are absolutely ON TOPIC, which I will remind forum members, was identified by Andrew as a CONTINUATION of his investigation of potential mithraic influence on Christianity.
2. They are certainly far more pertinant to the immediate discussion, than either Roger's or Toto's comments from the previous thread on this same topic. Those comments were not split away, despite being NOT ontopic, and NOT helpful to someone like me, who knows and understands almost nothing about history, philosophy, religion, or foreign languages.

avi

Toto · 06-13-2010, 02:16 PM

Discussion of moderation issues is always off topic.

There are numerous threads here on Mithraism. Not everything needs to be in one thread.

I will be offline for a while. PM me with your proposed solution, if any.

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06-09-2010, 12:15 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The "Article History" tab indicates that Shiveta Singh produced the content in 2008. Another tab indicates that EB is emulating Wikipedia - anyone can suggest an edit and become a "content editor" if they like you.

06-12-2010, 09:41 PM	#7
rcscwc Banned Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Delhi, India. 011-26142556 Posts: 2,292	And, Mitra being God, could not be crucified. As for Zarathrushtra, there is record or Parsi tradition of his being crucified and shedding his scared blood.

06-13-2010, 02:16 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Discussion of moderation issues is always off topic. There are numerous threads here on Mithraism. Not everything needs to be in one thread. I will be offline for a while. PM me with your proposed solution, if any.

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