Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 01-20-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schilling.klaus

The marcionite (more original) version of the epistles knows no
'according to Scripture', it's a fraudulent interpolation by
Judaising Roman Catholics like Justin Martyr, Polycarp, and Irenaeus.
Marcion was already aware of an abomination going on
in certain communities that judaised Christianity, and opposed to it.

IMO Eusebius forged the lot.
In the fourth century.
He was ordered to do so.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

jjramsey · 01-20-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

Samson is usually considered a Sun-inspired character, and I agree with that assessment. He has long hair, something like the rays of the Sun, and cutting off his hair makes him weak, something like the Sun looking dim and rayless when on the horizon.

Except that this symbolism is nowhere in the text, which indicated instead that he lost his supernatural strength by effectively breaking his Nazirite vow. About the only thing you have going for your thesis is some dicey etymology. The overall story line doesn't have much to do with sun worship at all.

Malachi151 · 01-20-2008, 03:43 PM

Okay, so so far we have John 21:11, and the use of the number 153 as a possible Pythagorean borrowing.

Given that John seems partly gnostic, and is one of the latest written works of the NT canon, and that John 21 is yet an even later alteration of John, this still doesn't bring us around to evidence that the story of Jesus is based on "pagan gods" and "astrological references".

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-20-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

And your evidence for this global claim is ...?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey,

It is a possibility that may as well be factored in
since we have today the use of computers by
which we may entertain more than one myopia
at the one time.

When are you going to start?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-20-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

So were most Jewish texts at this time. During the 200 years prior to the writing of the New Testament texts Jewish texts were increasingly written in Greek. This is why the Jewish cannon ends after the book of Daniel, because later compilers used the language as a criteria to determine what could be canonized. The Catholic Old Testament apocrypha is composed largely of Jewish works written in Greek.

Also, by the 1st century only 18% of tombs in Jerusalem were inscribed in Hebrew or Aramaic, most were inscribed in Greek.

Thus if the authors of the gospels at the least were
very Hellenised Jews, why seek Jewish explications
of the story, and theme, and origins?

What's with this "very" Hellenized nonsense?

One can be Hellenized with respect to language but not beliefs. How does speaking Greek make them no longer believers in only one creator, covenanting God who chose Israel to bring blessings on all the nations of the earth and who gave them a Law by which they may show their faitfulness to him?

Jeffrey

Malachi151 · 01-20-2008, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Thus if the authors of the gospels at the least were
very Hellenised Jews, why seek Jewish explications
of the story, and theme, and origins?

What's with this "very" Hellenized nonsense?

One can be Hellenized with respect to language but not beliefs. How does speaking Greek make them no longer believers in only one creator, covenanting God who chose Israel to bring blessings on all the nations of the earth and who gave them a Law by which they may show their faitfulness to him?

Jeffrey

Right. The issue is no different than, for example, American Muslims, who only read and speak English. Just because they read the Koran in English doesn't mean that they are somehow taken over by Christianity.

Or really, the issue can apply to Jews for that matter. There are plenty fo American Jews who only speak and read English.

mountainman · 01-20-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Thus if the authors of the gospels at the least were
very Hellenised Jews, why seek Jewish explications
of the story, and theme, and origins?

What's with this "very" Hellenized nonsense?

One can be Hellenized with respect to language but not beliefs. How does speaking Greek make them no longer believers in only one creator, covenanting God who chose Israel to bring blessings on all the nations of the earth and who gave them a Law by which they may show their faitfulness to him?

Jeffrey

Did Philo (who is generally recognised as a "Hellenised Jew")
ever subscribe to this limited edition of Israel or did he instead
subscribe to a far more universal appreciation of Law and tradition?
What does the evidence tell us about Philo's beliefs?
Philo certainly never once mentions christianity.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

Jeffrey Gibson · 01-20-2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

What's with this "very" Hellenized nonsense?

One can be Hellenized with respect to language but not beliefs. How does speaking Greek make them no longer believers in only one creator, covenanting God who chose Israel to bring blessings on all the nations of the earth and who gave them a Law by which they may show their faitfulness to him?

Jeffrey

Did Philo (who is generally recognised as a "Hellenised Jew")

In Palestine?

Quote:

ever subscribe to this limited edition of Israel or did he instead
subscribe to a far more universal appreciation of Law and tradition?

I have no idea what you mean by a "far more universal appreciation of Law and tradition", let alone why you seem to think that this is an alternative to, or a denial of, being Jewish.

Quote:

What does the evidence tell us about Philo's beliefs?

That he subscribed mightily to all that is declared in the Shema and that he was known for his Jewish piety.

Quote:

Philo certainly never once mentions christianity.

He never mentions Hillel and Shammai either or Judas of Gamala. Why should he have, given the aim and focus of his writings?

In any case, do you think you could do us the kindness of not hijacking the thread any longer?

Instead of riding your hobby horse once again, can you focus on the topic at hand -- i.e., the validity of AS's claims?

Jeffrey

mountainman · 01-20-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Did Philo (who is generally recognised as a "Hellenised Jew")

In Palestine?

We dont know where the gospels authors wrote.
It may have been Palestine. It may have been Rome.
It may have been the 1st, 2nd or 4th century.
They wrote in Greek.

Quote:

Instead of riding your hobby horse once again, can you focus on the topic at hand -- i.e., the validity of AS's claims?

Acharyas claims are in a totally different domain
and chronology than the purported domain and chronology
of "Biblical History".

Her claims and domains are far broader.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

01-21-2008, 12:00 AM

Greetings all,

I thought members may be interested in how Acharya S views people on this board, apparently including myself :

Quote:

It is a shame that IIDB feels the need to indulge this disturbed individual while allowing him to run off such a gracious and dignified person as Y. Ditto with several of the other characters over there, including one who has made his unpleasant presence here as well. That board - and perhaps infidelity in general - appears to attract mentally ill, socially retarded individuals, some of whom I would guess are on psych disability. There are quite a few people on psych disability populating forums, some of whom are pleasant, some not. I've encountered a number myself in my own groups, which is how I know about them. I have no problem with people with mental illness per se, just those who don't know they have it and are extremely unpleasant.

In their endeavors at debunking everything under the sun, is THIS sort of depraved anti-social behavior what we are attempting to replace fervent theism with? I want no part of it, frankly, as it is simply more of the same hateful and despicable disrespect that theists engage in.

It is helpful to know that even mild-mannered Y has had such problems with these socially retarded people at IIDB that he left and has not returned. I can think of at least five people over there who appear to be severely mentally disturbed, including one individual who is rabidly scribbling some sort of deranged and IRRATIONAL rebuttal to my work. I am wondering if he suffers from Tourette's Syndrome. I knew someone with severe Tourette's, and there were times when he could not refrain from arguing about everything. For years I maintained my friendship with this person, even though he drove me crazy with his constant argumentativeness. Finally, someone told me that unending argumentativeness was one of the symptoms of Tourette's, and everything suddenly made sense.

It is a shame that the Internet Infidels are being represented by these demented characters - such socially deranged behavior reflects VERY badly on the freethinker community. If I were a Christian, I would be pointing out this obvious mental illness all over the place.

P.S. Upon further reading from Y, I am shocked to discover that this person X is a college professor?! Needless to say, I would not allow my child to be in his class. Good grief - I'd be afraid he'd go psycho. Here's a comment from a student of his: "The WORST teacher I have ever had in my life- Had zero respect for students.." He's always late, they're saying - of course, because he hangs out on IIDB harassing people.

From Acharya S' forums http://forums.truthbeknown.com/viewt...r=asc&start=60

Apparently Acharya S' IIDB critics are merely the un-diagnosed mentally ill, the socially depraved, demented and retarded, or on psych disability.

It seems I only argue with her claims because I have Tourette's Syndrome ! Apart from being rabid, deranged and irrational that is.

Such is the response of Acharya S when her work and scholarship is criticised.

Iasion

(I have replaced two other names that are well known here with X and Y.)

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01-20-2008, 03:43 PM	#353
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Okay, so so far we have John 21:11, and the use of the number 153 as a possible Pythagorean borrowing. Given that John seems partly gnostic, and is one of the latest written works of the NT canon, and that John 21 is yet an even later alteration of John, this still doesn't bring us around to evidence that the story of Jesus is based on "pagan gods" and "astrological references".

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