Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 07-26-2006, 08:57 PM

In late 2004, I posted the poll Jesus: entirely mythical, or a historical person? The final numbers on that poll were:
MJers: 98 (29.34%)
HJers: 104 (31.14%)
Insufficient data/no opinion: 132 (39.52%)

Since that time, there has been a vast amount of discussion concerning this topic, and I'd like to see if I can detect any changes in the opinions here.

If you voted in my '04 poll, please select from options 1-6, or (possibly) option 10. (If you select 10, please post what your original vote was, and why you feel the other options are not for you.)

If you did NOT vote in the '04 poll, please select the choice closest to your opinion from 7-10.

Interesting personal factoid: although I am not a regular in BC&H, and certainly don't consider myself more than an interested and well-educated amateur in the subjects covered in this forum, that '04 poll is the longest single thread I've ever started on II!

Dean Anderson · 07-27-2006, 01:11 AM

I voted in '04 as an MJer, and voted the same just now.

However, I have the caveat that (like then) I think that there almost certainly was a person (or persons) who went around and preached - after all, someone must have originated the 'Q' sayings - but that the Gospel biographies are likely to represent almost pure Midrash and do not reflect anything of the life of this person, so the Christ figure in them (and certainly the Christ figure that Paul talks about) can be considered to be a purely Mythical construct.

Also, whilst I think this the most likely scenario - I am by no means dogmatic as an MJer, and I think it is possible that an Historical Jesus existed.

mountainman · 07-27-2006, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobar

Interesting personal factoid: although I am not a regular in BC&H, and certainly don't consider myself more than an interested and well-educated amateur in the subjects covered in this forum, that '04 poll is the longest single thread I've ever started on II!

The only way that you'll get me to vote is if you
allow as the "??" the characters "FJ" which since
your earlier poll I have argued as representing the
FICTIONAL JESUS.

F=FICTIONAL as in the considered words of emperor
Julian "the fabrication of Galilaeans is a fiction of men
composed by wickedness".

Pete Brown

Jobar · 07-27-2006, 05:30 AM

I understand your distinction, but myths are fictions, no?

Feel free to vote for options 7 or 10, as pleases you. Or not; this is, after all, entirely voluntary!

Mythra · 07-27-2006, 07:03 AM

Myth.

Any theory about Jesus has a dilemna or two to resolve.

HJ has a mountain of dilemnas, and many are unresolveable - except through apologetic calisthenics.

MJ theory makes the most sense to me. And the problems (such as kata sarka or brother of the lord) have reasonable explanations.

Barefoot Bree · 07-27-2006, 08:06 AM

So far, with 23 votes, the MJ'ers have a sizeable lead.

I agree. I'm no scholar in any sense, but that explanation quite simply makes the most sense to me.

No Robots · 07-27-2006, 08:33 AM

And in another astounding development, 15 anonymous web users have voted that the United States does not exist! Someone alert the U.N.!

Ted Hoffman · 07-27-2006, 08:41 AM

Jobar, why the polls?

OripahsTrebor · 07-27-2006, 01:14 PM

I think a historical Jesus existed, but, of course, details regarding his life has been greatly aggrandized. One must remember that the Gospels were written to gain converts, not to accurately depict the life of Jesus. I most certainly do not believe in Jesus' alledged divinity, but I regard the Jesus myth to have as much respectability as the Duesburg hypothesis, or Michael Cremo's Forbidden Archeology (or via: amazon.co.uk).

jeffevnz · 07-27-2006, 02:33 PM

This is my first time voting on this. I voted HJ, but if the answer mattered for any practical purpose, I'd say "not enough information", just to be safe.

Although they're far from conclusive, I've found the embarassing details in the Gospels (eg, unfulfilled prophecy and people from Jesus's hometown thinking he was full of it) to be the most compelling arguments in favor of an HJ. It's hard to picture early Xtians believing in an MJ, and then dreaming up an earthly life for him that made him look bad. It's also hard to imagine someone including these embarassments while composing a FJ.

View Poll Results: Jesus: mythical, historical, or insufficient data?
Voted in '04 for MJ, and still think Jesus was a myth.	8	7.69%
Voted in '04 for HJ, and still think Jesus was entirely/mostly historical	2	1.92%
Voted "insufficient data" in '04 and still think we don't have enough info to decide	5	4.81%
Voted in '04, but have changed since to MJer	3	2.88%
Voted in '04, but have changed since to HJer	2	1.92%
Voted in '04, but have since decided that the data is insufficient	2	1.92%
Did NOT vote in '04, but IMO Jesus was a myth.	38	36.54%
Did NOT vote in '04, but IMO Jesus was in some degree historical.	28	26.92%
Did NOT vote in '04, but IMO we have insufficient data to decide the question.	15	14.42%
Other- Biblical literalist, magical brownies, ???	1	0.96%
Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll

07-26-2006, 08:57 PM	#1
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Another poll on HJ, MJ, or ??? In late 2004, I posted the poll Jesus: entirely mythical, or a historical person? The final numbers on that poll were: MJers: 98 (29.34%) HJers: 104 (31.14%) Insufficient data/no opinion: 132 (39.52%) Since that time, there has been a vast amount of discussion concerning this topic, and I'd like to see if I can detect any changes in the opinions here. If you voted in my '04 poll, please select from options 1-6, or (possibly) option 10. (If you select 10, please post what your original vote was, and why you feel the other options are not for you.) If you did NOT vote in the '04 poll, please select the choice closest to your opinion from 7-10. Interesting personal factoid: although I am not a regular in BC&H, and certainly don't consider myself more than an interested and well-educated amateur in the subjects covered in this forum, that '04 poll is the longest single thread I've ever started on II!

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-27-2006, 01:11 AM	#2
Dean Anderson Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Brighton, England Posts: 6,947	I voted in '04 as an MJer, and voted the same just now. However, I have the caveat that (like then) I think that there almost certainly was a person (or persons) who went around and preached - after all, someone must have originated the 'Q' sayings - but that the Gospel biographies are likely to represent almost pure Midrash and do not reflect anything of the life of this person, so the Christ figure in them (and certainly the Christ figure that Paul talks about) can be considered to be a purely Mythical construct. Also, whilst I think this the most likely scenario - I am by no means dogmatic as an MJer, and I think it is possible that an Historical Jesus existed.

07-27-2006, 05:30 AM	#4
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	I understand your distinction, but myths are fictions, no? Feel free to vote for options 7 or 10, as pleases you. Or not; this is, after all, entirely voluntary!

07-27-2006, 07:03 AM	#5
Mythra Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: BFE Posts: 416	Myth. Any theory about Jesus has a dilemna or two to resolve. HJ has a mountain of dilemnas, and many are unresolveable - except through apologetic calisthenics. MJ theory makes the most sense to me. And the problems (such as kata sarka or brother of the lord) have reasonable explanations.

07-27-2006, 08:06 AM	#6
Barefoot Bree Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: East of ginger trees Posts: 12,637	So far, with 23 votes, the MJ'ers have a sizeable lead. I agree. I'm no scholar in any sense, but that explanation quite simply makes the most sense to me.

07-27-2006, 08:33 AM	#7
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	And in another astounding development, 15 anonymous web users have voted that the United States does not exist! Someone alert the U.N.!

07-27-2006, 08:41 AM	#8
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Jobar, why the polls?

07-27-2006, 01:14 PM	#9
OripahsTrebor Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: drinking coffee at Cafe Che Posts: 1,318	I think a historical Jesus existed, but, of course, details regarding his life has been greatly aggrandized. One must remember that the Gospels were written to gain converts, not to accurately depict the life of Jesus. I most certainly do not believe in Jesus' alledged divinity, but I regard the Jesus myth to have as much respectability as the Duesburg hypothesis, or Michael Cremo's Forbidden Archeology (or via: amazon.co.uk).

07-27-2006, 02:33 PM	#10
jeffevnz Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA, USA Posts: 3,370	This is my first time voting on this. I voted HJ, but if the answer mattered for any practical purpose, I'd say "not enough information", just to be safe. Although they're far from conclusive, I've found the embarassing details in the Gospels (eg, unfulfilled prophecy and people from Jesus's hometown thinking he was full of it) to be the most compelling arguments in favor of an HJ. It's hard to picture early Xtians believing in an MJ, and then dreaming up an earthly life for him that made him look bad. It's also hard to imagine someone including these embarassments while composing a FJ.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.