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07-22-2003, 12:33 AM | #21 | |
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07-22-2003, 01:40 AM | #22 | |
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07-22-2003, 11:39 AM | #23 | |
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Two Versions of secret Mark. "Original Mark" The differing Marks used by Matthew and Luke. The redacted canonical Mark which appeared after Mt and Lk used their versions of Mark. Actually, that seems to make six versions of Mark! But original Mark may have been the one used by Matthew whereas Luke got a hold of a more redacted version. And thats just five or six that we know about Vinine |
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07-22-2003, 10:21 PM | #24 | ||
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You know a site where I can get arguments that refute Markan priority? Quote:
PS. Six versions - wow . Could you outline the features of each of them? And perharps how you distinguish them? |
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07-24-2003, 08:29 AM | #25 | |||
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Yuri might disagree here. He might not call this an earlier version of Mark, just an early proto-Gospel with some similarities to canonical Mark maybe? Both views are relatively close to one another but there would be a slight difference. I also accept the existence of Q. Yuri believes AMtt and Luke certainly made use of sayings sources but he denies Q. He is correct that many well informed scholars deny Q. Goodcare has a case against Q and E.P. Sanders and AMrgaret Davies advocated this same "Mark without Q" position in "Studying the Synoptic Gospels." He attempts to demonstrate that Matthew knew Mark, and Luke knew Matthew and Mark. Ergo, no Q source. Though it must still be maintained that Matthew used sayings sources as well as Luke. I disagree with these scholars and find myself in a modified 2ST camp. With that being said, their arguments should not be brushed under some consensus rug. I doubt that many here would have the knowledge to even touch Sander's and Davies case against Q in SSG or Goodcares or even defend Markan priority against a well informed GH proponent. Its not called the "synoptic problem" for nothing! Quote:
Matthew and Luke had access to a different text than canonical Mark, as my paper demonstrated. It further maintained that Luke's copy lacked the Bethsaida section and this was most likely due to redaction. Thus Matthew and Luke had different versions of original Mark. This is then two versions: Canonical Mark came later, after Matt and Luke used these Marcan texts. Canonical Mark (which should need no elaboration) is a third version. There are also two versions of secret Mark identifiable in second century literature. I don't have time to jump into secret Mark right now but I think Peter has an article on this somewhere on his site talking about the five versions of Mark. Maybe he can provide a link to it? I can come back later in the week and talk more though. We have at least five different versions of Mark (if we call Matthew's version original Mark). Vinine |
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08-11-2003, 02:15 PM | #26 |
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Not sure I'm entirely qualified to comment, and this thread is a bit dead, but I thought I would say a few things.
First, I hate multiplying gospels. What we got is what they are--anything prior is something else. That is, we should call it something else, rather than proto-So-and-So. That's the perspective I take on it, anyway. So I wouldn't say that we really have even more than one verson of Mark. Secret Mark, sure, but that's different, which is why it's called Secret Mark. More than one Secret Mark? Maybe, who knows. But only one Mark. Anything else should be called something else. I like Yuri's overall perspective, because it's similar to my own (!)--that is, in the end, we ultimately have multiple sources. Call it the Many Source Hypothesis (MSH)--you heard it here first. Like many others, including Yuri, I would agree that we have sources such as M and L. I'm beginning to suspect these can be further broken up into infancy and ministry stories. I myself wouldn't call either a gospel narrative, but I could be wrong. I think they were just collections of material. It's also clear we have a Signs Something-or-Other, which I (and others) prefer to call J. J might have included other material, about Lazarus for example. It also may have included a lot of Logos material. Or the Logos material could have been a separate source. I think we can further discern kernels such as those that led to the resurrection stories in places like the Gospel of Peter and maybe the insertion into the Ascension of Isaiah chs. 3-4. I also favor a separate Passion Narrative, but I'm not committed to this. I just think that John couldn't really have known about Mark (or else disregarded it, for whatever reason) without using either his material or his narrative more extensively, so there must have been a separate common source for their passion accounts. (This would also suggest a common source for Mark and John, for the material and structure that they occasionally share, an idea which I support.) And maybe there was a Q, maybe there wasn't--maybe it was part of M, or L, who knows. The point is, there were many sources, and they all contributed to the documents we have today. Note that these documents include people like Ignatius and Barnabas and the Second Century Apologists. And ultimately, many of these sources were oral. I don't think we need to hypothesize earlier "versions" of gospels. I personally favor Mark as the earliest gospel, with Matthew and Luke basing their accounts on Mark, probably in that order. (And Matthew would have been influenced by L, and Luke would have been influenced by M, if you see what I mean.) And maybe there was an earlier, or separate, "gospel", or even more than one such document, but I prefer those who simply term it a proto-gospel, without labeling it with the name of one of the gospels we have. Maybe "gospel" is even misleading, since it doesn't exactly look like any of the gospels we now have. "Non-Q Sayings Sources?" "Ministry narratives?" That's what we might want to call them, anyway... And yet, trying to reconstruct these hypothetical "gospels" seems to me to be an indeterminable endeavor. Take the ending of Mark for example--maybe Mark ended with the Centurion, sure. Except that invalidates the suggestion that Mark is a readings cycle, with the beginning of Jesus' ministry in Galilee thus corresponding with the angel's statement to the women at the tomb that Jesus will go before them to Galilee. So that's actually less evidience that Mark is a midrashic yearly cycle of readings--and, that's less of a reason for writing the Midrash in the first place. I'm not saying that the author of the "Centurion-ending gospel" couldn't have been inspired by Misrash practices, I'm just saying that I can't see evidence deciding it one way or the other, since the main criterion for such theories is mostly "See, now doesn't that sound plausible?" Or, maybe Mark took an earlier "gospel" that ended with the Centurion, and spiffed it up into a midrashic cycle of readings. But then Mark didn't invent the gospel narrative, like some claim--someone else did. Or, maybe the original writer was Mark, and canonical Mark is the spiffed-up yearly-readings-cycle of Mark. Who knows? Not me, that's for sure, and I see little evidence that anyone else will anytime soon. I could be wrong. |
08-11-2003, 02:24 PM | #27 | |
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This is why I think that Mark should be reserved for the name of the author of the complete gospel as we have it. Ideally it would be reserved for the name of the earliest document that bears the name--except we have no such document. All we have is the current gospel of Mark. |
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08-13-2003, 12:32 PM | #28 | |||||
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Regards, Yuri. |
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08-13-2003, 12:44 PM | #29 | |
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I don't know, maybe he can say that he only made the 2SH his foundation because everyone (or almost everyone) accepts it, so he doesn't really need to get into the Synoptic morass to argue that Jesus didn't exist. So perhaps he can still make some sort of a case for non-historicity even without the 2SH? Remains to be seen, though... Best, Yuri. |
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08-15-2003, 02:18 AM | #30 | |
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His thesis is iron clad. Argument for the best explanation - considering everything we have. As an ABE, it accounts for just about everything. His analysis remains sound, whichever way the synoptic problem points. |
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