Koyaanisqatsi

Funny how that didn't seem to apply to the Jews, of which the disciples were.

Since they were Jews and Jews apparently were not forced to worship the "official pantheon," what difference would that make?

So if you are right, then I was right; a "belief in Jesus" didn't mean shit to the Romans. If any disciples were executed it was for treason, not because of their belief in Jesus. That would only be an irrelevant trivial detail. Jews, Buddhists, Hindu, IPUists, in short, anyone not worshipping as they were told would have all been executed for treason. That and only that would be the reason for their alleged deaths.

The Christian cult, however, pretends that it was because they worshipped the "one true god" or other such nonsense that they were executed, which is false. According to you, they would have been executed for failing to obey Roman law.

:huh:

RAFH

Actually they didn't decide to kill them all, they enslaved a good many, spreading them about the empire and beyond. The Jews had proved troublesome and difficult, something the Romans only tolerated in themselves, and then only because they themselves were troublesome and difficult folk and the solution they would have employed, the one they used with the Jews and other troublesome and difficult groups within the Empire, would have meant the end of the Empire. What they did was not so much as kill all the Jews as attempt to kill the Jewish Culture. The destroyed the Jews militarily and then demolished their city and especially their temple, the center of Jewish culture. Then the remaining population was spread out to as great a degree as possible. At the time, you were probably safer as a Christian than as a Jew. After 70 CE, being a Jew in the Empire meant death or slavery, period. It was not till later an animosity grew towards xians, if it did at all.

I personally believe xians simply didn't constitute a sufficient enough population to bother with. As long as they paid their taxes and didn't disrupt the Roman way of life, they were ignored.

But the Jews had been a problem and the Romans dealt with it. Rather effectively in the short run, equally ineffectively in the long run. Indeed, its probable the Diaspora actually saved the Jewish culture by spreading it so thin as to not pose a problem to anyone and making it a cherished and glorious past that was all the surviving Jews had to hold on too, which they did with a zeal and passion unmatched by virtually any other group. If they had remained as a viable nation, when Islam exploded on the scene, the Jews would have been one of the first victims and I believe, given its similarities and contradiction to Islam, it would have been utterly destroyed. As a minor minority spread everywhere, it would be much more difficult, perhaps even impossible, to destroy than if it was a material nation.

I have to admire their tenacity. Though I still think they are nuts, not necessarily the good kind.

RPS

Really? What are the vast details of Shakespeare's life that we're sure of?

Sure there is. Birth with questionable parentage. Baptism by John. Teaching ministry with teachings the basis of new major religion. Seen as a healer. Rabble-rouser of sorts. Death by crucifixion. Followers claimed resurrection.

Certainty and speculation aren't the only options.

I don't claim to know, but I find the MJ idea laughably unlikely and typically an ideological conclusion rather than an evidence-based one.

The Jews seem to be a bit of an exception because they were seen as a national religion with a national (tribal) god. The new Christian upstarts were persecuted, though not as frequently or severely os sometimes claimed. The Pliny/Trajan materials document the persecution for religious belief and practice. Those who repented of being Christians and offered sacrifice to the gods were pardoned.

You offer a distinction without a difference because belief in Jesus was treason. As Acts puts it, they obeyed the laws of God rather than men.

The Romans were ever practical in their punishments.

You have conveniently forgotten Nero, who died in 68 AD.

Koyaanisqatsi

Yeah, right around the time when the pro-Roman, anti-Jewish Mark was written by a non-Jew turning what could only have been a popular seditionist leader/Rabbi killed by the Romans, into a Jewish messiah killed by the Jews.

Funny how that coincides.

Yahzi

Good call!

Yahzi

Why don't you start here:
Gosh, I don't know. Records, wills, marriages. And a grave. However can we be sure Shakespeare existed?

Gawen

This thread is being moved to BC&H

Wolfie

Relatives and loved ones would often break the legs of the crucifixion victim to hasten death (see here). If it had been decided that the victim had to go all the way through the long horrible process, a guard was detailed to prevent this act of mercy.

aa5874

So, how do you know Jesus existed if there is virtually nothing on antiquity?

RAFH

Cuz the xbook says so and it was written directly by the theistic threesome, xgod(s), junior and the wholly spooky. What more do you need?