ChristMyth

Let's assume for the sake of this argument that the Jesus of the Gospels are a work of fiction even if a man who went by that name actually existed.

The question that arises for me is why this Jesus of fiction wasn't made to be more godlike if he was thought to be not only the son of a god but God himself?

If we compare him to the other stories of mythology, the life of Jesus was kinda boring. I mean, he never cleaned the stalls of twelve man-eating horses (Hercules), or fought any great battles (Achilles) or any of the other stories that are attributed to demigods or gods.

If we assume that these stories were widely known throughout the first century, and that some of the stories told about Jesus were influenced from these stories of demigods (the resurrection for instance), then why are they not more extravegant than they are? Why wasn't Jesus protrayed as a fallen leader of the revolt agains the Romans or taking on surperior tests devised by his arch-nemsis Satan? (Let's face it, the tests given to him in the New Testament by Satan aren't that impressive.)

avi

1. Jewish literature may have been, traditionally, understated, as opposed to "pagan" literature;

2. If I am correct, that the gospel stories and "Paul's" letters represent primarily fund raising promotional material, then the intended audience may well have expected less hyperbole, and more substance. Compare Louis L'amour's westerns, with those of Elmore Leonard, for example. One can discern within two minutes of watching a movie of a Louis L'amour novel, who is the good guy, who is the bad guy, and who will win the heart of the beautiful lass. One must be a bit circumspect about making such predictions with Leonard....

3. The extant copies have all been "interpolated", i.e. mutilated, so we don't really know what the original versions contained. Maybe JC raised not only Lazarus from the dead, but many other folks too....

avi

ApostateAbe

Yeah, a Jewish religious preacher with a few followers who travels through the countryside and gets crucified is maybe not the expected base storyline of an epic myth. There are of course the miracle stories and exciting rhetorical confrontations, but those things, if they save the plot from being outright drab, seem to do it forcibly, something we would not expect to be necessary if the whole thing was invented by a storyteller. We could have had Jesus being born of a king, getting exiled and going on a decades-long adventure traveling the world, then returning to conquer a tyrant, something kinda like Oedipus Rex did. But, no, we have him traveling a rural part of the Middle East, preaching the doctrine of a Jewish cult for the underclass, and performing miracles. There are a few people who believe that the first gospel was written as fiction, and it seems like they would have an uphill battle. But, people generally believe what they want to be true, and that is especially the case for the subject of the origins of Christianity.

GakuseiDon

From here:

CHAP. 18.--And having come to a certain cave, and wishing to rest in it, the blessed [8] Mary dismounted from her beast, and sat down with the child Jesus in her bosom. And there were with Joseph three boys, and with Mary a girl, going on the journey along with them. And, lo, suddenly there came forth from the cave many dragons; and when the children saw them, they cried out in great terror. Then Jesus went down from the bosom of His mother, and stood on His feet before the dragons; and they adored Jesus, and thereafter retired. Then was fulfilled that which was said by David the prophet, saying: Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons; ye dragons, and all ye deeps [9] And the young child Jesus, walking before them, commanded them to hurt no man. But Mary and Joseph were very much afraid lest the child should be hurt by the dragons. And Jesus said to them: Do not be afraid, and do not consider me to be a little child; for I am and always have been perfect; and all the beasts of the forest must needs be tame before me.

CHAP. 19.--Lions and panthers adored Him likewise, and accompanied them in the desert. Wherever Joseph and the blessed Mary went, they went before them showing them the way, and bowing their heads; and showing their submission by wagging their tails, they adored Him with great reverence.

Also from here:

The found him in Upper Galilee, proclaiming himself the Son of God. When they tried to take him there was a struggle, but Yeshu said to the men of Upper Galilee: "Wage no battle." He would prove himself by the power which came to him from his Father in heaven. He spoke the Ineffable Name over the birds of clay and they flew into the air. He spoke the same letters over a millstone that had been placed upon the waters. He sat in it and it floated like a boat. When they saw this the people marveled...

When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, this time there were present also the Sages and Judah Iskarioto. Yeshu said: "It is spoken of me, 'I will ascend into heaven.'" He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he flew between heaven and earth, to the amazement of everyone.

The elders asked Iskarioto to do likewise. He did, and flew toward heaven. Iskarioto attempted to force Yeshu down to earth but neither one of the two could prevail against the other for both had the use of the Ineffable Name. However, Iskarioto defiled Yeshu, so that they both lost their power and fell down to the earth, and in their condition of defilement the letters of the Ineffable Name escaped from them. Because of this deed of Judah they weep on the eve of the birth of Yeshu.

I think the answer to your question is this: The deeds of Hercules and other gods could be added to over hundreds of years, since there was no 'official' version of the story. With Christianity, though, by the end of the Second Century there was a fairly good idea of what Jesus' 'official' story was, so while new stories continued to be developed (the second one above presumably by Jewish detractors) they were never accepted as canon.

mountainman

The Jesus of fiction obviously must have had some support.
Who ended up with the publishing rights anyway?



He was published in the Greek NT along with the Greek LXX.
They declared the antiquity of the Hebrews greater than the Greeks.
His "nomina sacra" code was the same code used in the LXX for "Joshua".
Clever Greek fiction eh - appealing to the antiquity of the Hebrews.
Who really knew about the antiquity of the jews anyway?
No wonder we find all sorts of corruptions in Josephus.


Perhaps the fabricators did not have unlimited time to gather together the books that were destined to become the NT canonical books. But surely the WHEN is the critical question. If you are postulating a fictional jesus then we need to look for an author in some century or other.


Like the Galilaeans? Emperor Julian legally altered the name of "Christians" to "Galilaeans" in the 4th century. I wonder why?



The evaluation of the merits of various fiction stories is often a very subjective exercise. What were the merits earned by Gandalf the Grey to become Gandalf the White, and the merits accrued during the tests of Harry Potter?

What I find impressive are the steps that the authors of the NT canonical books go to in order to downplay the traditional and highly revered views related to the ascetic path.

The Eightfold Path of "Partial Asceticism" in the New testament

(1) "Noble Silence": fundamental to all other ancient (and modern) ascetic practices is passed over in silence.
(2) Eating meat: not the promotion of vegetarian practices
(3) Drinking Wine: not the avoidance of alcohol.
(4) Hanging out in the Pub after work: Consorting
(5) Fasting not necessary! Direct link to God through "Prayer" alone.
(6) Healing practices: fasting not required for doctor! "Prayer power"!
(7) Monastic Customs: The Politics of Tax policy statements - eg: "Render unto Caesar ..."
(8) Nonviolence: "Then would my servants fight" --- is both conditioned and disclaimed.

Jaybees

Culture heroes generally start out as pretty much ordinary human beings. Given a couple of generations (especially if literacy isn't widespread) the story is retold many times and added to in the process. If he killed 3 persons originally with a stone club, it becomes 2,000with the jawbone of an ass. Once the legend is fixed in writing, whether the Illiad or the NT, that tends to fix it, though oral legends can still spread.

So, for what it's worth, there's probably a kernel of truth in the Jesus legends, much exagerrated before the OT was formally adopted. The pagan add-ons are pretty obvious, but there wasn't enough time for Augean stables and the like, though ascending into heaven is no mean feat.

Zaphod

Because he was invented after the fall of the Jerusalem temple, when every evidence was that the large-scale supposedly omnipotent god had abandoned or failed them. Salvation had to come from the Jews themselves, and had to be on high because on Earth everything sucked big time.

Steven Carr

Yes, 'Matthew' does declare Jesus to have been a king from birth.

Yup, Jesus does get sent to Egypt to save him from death, and can only return from his exile later.


Jesus conquers the greatest tyrant of all - death.

Abe makes a fabulous case for Jesus being mythical, listing all the boxes that Jesus ticked.

ApostateAbe

A fabulous case! Well, sort of. I wouldn't claim that the gospels don't contain storytelling elements. The issue is whether the first gospel narrative started out that way or whether those storytelling elements developed at a later time. If it started out that way, then we expect the storytelling elements to be in Mark and Q, the earliest narratives, in addition to Matthew, Luke and John. Turns out, nope, the exile to Egypt (containing almost no exciting narrative details) is contained in only Matthew, not Mark or Q. Same for Jesus being conceived of a virgin (presumably by God). It is contained in Matthew and Luke, but not Mark or Q. When we are theorizing about the origins of Christianity, it is kind of a nonstarter to base your model entirely on things not seen in the earliest evidence. So, how do you make the best sense of this? Do you say that Matthew and Luke really were as early or earlier than Mark and Q? Hey, good luck with that.

ApostateAbe

That's possibly a good point. Do you happen to have an available example of mythical characters starting out as relatively normal?