Clinical

So who was it? "A prophet among the Saracens"? It can only refer to Muhammed as far as I know. We know of no other prophets in that area at the time.

TaylorC

Again, I haven't done the research of that area during the 7th century, so I can't really refute or confirm your point, but I don't think it's reasonable to conclude the reference has to be Muhammad simply because we currently know of no other Saracen prophets from that time. At one time we didn't know of any other messiah claimants from 1st century Palestine aside from Jesus, but there has turned out to be a ton of them. All I'm saying is that there's no need to jump to conclusions, especially when the Doctrina Jacobi says the prophet taught about the second coming of Christ. Islam, as far as I know, has never even acknowledged the possibility of a second coming.

Roger Pearse

Can we? Where?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

It sounds like an interesting text. Is it in the PG, I wonder? (I haven't any reference books here).

I've just found a reference: Doctrina Jacobi, in ''Patrologia orientalis'', 1903., vol. VIII, p 715. The PO8 is most certainly online at archive.org, as it contains Agapius 2.2.

I can't get access to archive.org at this instant, but I have a downloaded copy where it is fascicle V, translated by F. Nau, as the Didaskalie de Jacob; premiere assemblie. It's on PDF p.711. This contains the Greek text. There is a lengthy introduction, and the Greek begins on p. 745. No translation, tho.

Nau references the PO 3, which contains an Ethiopian version starting on PDF p.549. This has a French translation. However it doesn't seem to mention Mohammed.

I've found Kaegi's book in Google books, which references (p.328):

Doctrina Jacobi nuper Baptizandi, in G. Dagron and V. Deroche, "Juifs et chretiens dans l'Orient du VII siecle", Travaux et Memoires 11 (1991) 17-248.

According to BMCR this is an edition and commentary. I found a webpage for the series which indicated that it includes a translation.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

patcleaver

The first problem with Mohammad is that the name means Praiseworthy. It is not only a common name, but it is a title/description of anyone who accomplishes anything or is of good character. There were lots of political military and religious leaders called praiseworthy or named Praiseworthy. Stories about various different Mohammads were probably collected together and treated as though they were about the same person.

The second problem is that the Quran is just a collection of sayings attributed to various early Arabs who were praiseworthy or were named praiseworthy. Many of the sayings probably come from preexisting inscriptions on monuments and buildings. It is difficult to tell when the Quran was originally collected.

The third problem is that there have been several extensive redactions of the Quran so we have no idea what it originally contained or what has been added or deleted.

The fourth problem is that believers are often willing to commit fraud and forgery for their cause. Just as in Christianity, the Quran and the Hadiths and Muslim history are full of forgeries and interpolations.

Finally, fundamentalist elements took control of Islam in the mid 13th century when Muslims began to Idolize the Quran. Most Muslims claim that the Quran is perfect unadulterated copy of a book that exists in heaven. The Quran is therefore worshiped and can be blasphemed just like a God. Anti-intellectualism is common among Muslims, and Many Muslims believe that the only thing that you should learn is the Quran.

Clinical

Fair enough.
I thought it said that the Saracen Prophet claimed to be the Messiah/Christ.

Clinical

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

Roger Pearse

Excellent - thank you. It's from his work Adversus Haereses, the last section. Glad to see that it is accessible.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

sugarhitman

The Hebrew bible with books being discovered at the cave before Muhammed does not make predictions about an Arabic prophet. Muhammed who has no prophecies like the OT prophets is a false prophet.

Clinical

Muhammed is a name. Names in Arabic have meanings. My name means "self-made" or "self-dependent". You can also find similarities in other languages, such as "Christian" in English.
Thus Muhammed is a name that means "blessed". It is not a common name or just a title/description.
None was called Muhammed before Muhammed.
1. None was called Muhammed in Arabia before Muhammed.
2. The Quran is not "just a collection of sayings attributed to various early Arab" and neither "many of the sayings probably come from preexisting inscriptions on monuments and buildings". So far we have found nothing even remotely similar to what the Quran says from pre-existing monuments or buildings. Where do you get your information from? The only theory similar to this is that the Quran copied some of the pre-Islamic poetry, but this theory is now discredited because the vast majority of these poetries were proved to be post-Islamic invention.
Muhammed wrote and collected the Quran. That's what it says at least. So far I have seen no credible alternative theories.
Wrong. The story of "Uthmanic recension" have been proved to be a forgery. It is a very late invention actually.
We have several manuscripts from the mid-7th century that prove the preservation of the Quran we have today.
I agree with you on the Hadiths and Sira and part of the Muslim history, but not when it comes to the Quran. Muslims were known to hold the Quran in a very high regard and status. If someone attempted to deliberately change the Quran it would have a created a massive backlash throughout the Muslim world. You are wrong to compare between Muslims and Christians here because Christians had no revealed book, just several biographies of Jesus. Everyone wrote what he heard or believed Jesus had done and said. There is no comparison with the Muslims whose one of their belief tenets is the preservation of their revealed Scripture.
Muslims began to idolize the Quran way before the mid 13th century. You are depending on very old "scholarship" here. We have Arab inscriptions of the Quran from mid-7th century (The very dawn of Islam) on coins and monuments.
1. Muslims claim that the Quran is perfect unadulterated of what was revealed to Muhammed. We have several manuscripts from mid-7th century that confirm this.
2. There is no "book that exists in heaven". What exists in heaven is an imperishable tablet that has history from the beginning to the end. The Quran says we will see it on Judgment Day.
The Quran is not worshiped and is never treated like God. It's a preserved creature.
Your attitude is biased indeed; you make offensive and mindless sweeping generalizations about other religions and their followers. Muslims have always contributed to comparative religion and theology, including textual criticism hermeneutics and philosophy of religion. There was always study of science and philosophy in schools from the dawn of Islam till this day. The oldest continuous university today is in Morocco.