Gooch's dad

I would take an entirely different approach, and ask your host to explain how the doctrine of vicarious atonement could possibly make the slightest bit of sense. It is based on the idea that God can only forgive sin by the shedding of blood.

Ask your host if he would be willing to let a murderer walk free in his city, if an innocent man was willing to go to the electric chair in place of the murderer. That is what the doctrine of vicarious atonement comes down to, and it is complete nonsense.

"Jesus died for our sins" is a statement that just doesn't parse, it doesn't really say anything, when you look at it closely. The biblical inerrancy and NT-as-history debates can go around and around for hours, but the basic idea of Christianity itself is simply incoherent.

Ask him to defend that idea. He won't be able to, you can be sure of that.

Aspirin99

Vorkosigan makes me recall what I said to my Bible college roomate when he learned of my change of heart. He asked, "What do you believe now?" I simple said, "That the Bible is not God breathed."

luminous

I'm a fundie Christian (I've survived this forum so far but not without scars ) and this concept of vicarious atonement always bothered/bothers me. The concept of Jesus being punished for what Larry did to me, instead of Larry being punished, does not seem like justice to me. Justice would have Larry suffer the consequences, not some innocent volunteer.

To tell you the truth though, this concept bothers me, but 99.5% of fundamentalists probably have never even suspected that there may be something strange with the concept. We are taught that it's a beautiful thing and the perfect and only solution to the sin problem. You see, the typical fundie knows that there are many "mysteries" that we can't explain. Just ask us to make sense of the trinity in a rational way. Ask us to explain how the most basic laws of mathematics permit a doctrine that says Jesus was 100% man and 100% God etc... We know we don't have a rational explanation for some of our beliefs, so I don't think this approach will get you anywhere.

Instead, go straight for the jugular. Prove to a fundie that the Bible is not inerrant, prove to him that it's untrustworthy, prove to him that there are real contradictions, and you have removed his basis for faith.

You may find it strange to hear a fundie say these things, but I believe that if my beliefs can't stand up to challenges, my faith is worthless - this is why I'm here. I want to see if they stand up to the tests.

So, my advice - try proving to him that the Bible is not what he thinks it is.

aChristian

Hi,
Just a note, but just because you don't understand everything about
God does not make it wrong. You might not be smart enough to figure it out. If you were a 'fundie', you would believe the Bible and accept what it says about God. In addition, if you would read some good conservative scholarship, you would see that most of what is written on this forum is written from ignorance. The evidence for the resurrection is strong as well as the evidence for the inerrancy of the Bible.

P.S. If you really are a fundie and just want these guys to try to produce some evidence so that they can see the error of their position, I think that's good.

luminous

Did I say or imply that I believe the Bible is "wrong"?

True. But if you disregard logic and the law of non-contradiction to no end, no world view can be proven false. I'm simply stating that some of my fundie beliefs cannot be defended rationally. Why does this make you doubt that I'm a fundie? If you disagree, start threads attempting to rationally defend the Trinity, and Jesus being 100% man & 100% God for example. If believing that some fundie beliefs cannot be rationally defended (another ex being predestination v God's love for all men) disqualifies me from being a fundie, I'm sorry but I didn't get the news.


I'm a fundie saying that a fundie's whole faith rests on the Bible. I believe the Bible is true and inerrant, but I'm not afraid to be here and have my faith challenged. If someone is afraid to test his faith, he doesn't really believe but only fooling himself.

pharoah

Yea, where would we be without good ole' conservative scholarship? Thanks to those guys, I now know how Noah was able to go all around the world picking up animals and packing a million of them on one boat. I look forward to the article that explains how Jesus was crucified on Friday evening, rose on Sunday morning and yet spent 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.

Yours in Christ,
Pharoah

aChristian

The Bible says God brought the animals to Noah (maybe used their migration instincts, who knows?), he brought two of each kind (didn't need a dog and a wolf, one pair of the dog kind would do), and many good explanations of Jesus' time in the tomb have been written. You can find them if your interested in truth.

Harry Bosch

I'm glad to oblige! Noah's flood and the building of the tower of Bable {Damn I'm tired, I forgot the name of the damn tower, but you guys know it!} occured approximately 3500 BC. During this time, there was well established communities all over the world. The Chinese were building ancient structures. The Egyptians were building the prymids. Both of these groups spoke different languages and did not notice the flood. How can this be? When Joshua stopped the sun, how did that extend daylight on the earth? {The Earth revolves around the sun.}.

spin

But do they explain how a day and a half, from Friday evening to Sunday morning before dawn equals 3 days and 3 nights? I'm interested in the mathematics of how one and a half equals three. (If I could use the same principal in currency exchange I would be v-e-r-y happy.


spin

pharoah

Actually depending on which Flood version you read or whose explanation you accept he either brought 2 of each kind of every animal, 2 of each kind of every unclean animal and 7 of each kind of every clean animal, or 2 of each kind of every unclean animal and 14 of each kind of every clean animal.

At first God said 2 of each kind, then it must have occurred to him that Noah and co. would need to make the mother of all sacrifices at the end. You see, God loves the sweet savor of burning animal flesh - I'm not kidding you it's right here in the Bible! Therefore, he amended his original instructions and told Noah to take 7 (or was it 14?) of each clean animal into the ark.