Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 02-11-2013, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Copied from an earlier thread

I don't think it would have been possible to do a convincing forgery of Pliny book X without considerable knowledge of the situation in Bithynia around the time Pliny served there.

In practice this requires access to the orations of Dio Chrysostom which were little known in the West before the 1551 printed edition. (Allegedly there was a 1476 printed edition but no copy of it survives and modern scholars doubt if it ever existed.)

Andrew Criddle

What you say is not really logical.

The actual contents of the Pliny letter to Trajan about the Christians does NOT require considerable knowledge of the situation in Bithynia.

First of all, there is hardly anything in the letter itself about Bithynia but almost all about the Christians. All that is fundamentally required is that the forger has other letters to Trajan from Pliny when he was in Bithynia.

See http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/texts/pliny.html

Just to clarify.

I was discussing the possibility of Book X in its entirety being a renaissance forgery.

The idea that Book X in general is authentic, but the letters about Christians are not, has its own problems.

a/ Giocondo made available a genuine very ancient manuscript of Pliny a fragment of which survives in the Pierpont Morgan Library.
b/ This manuscript contained at the end a complete text of our present version of book X.

I don't see how a forger could have started with an ancient manuscript containing book X but without the letters about the Christians and just inserted those letters in the middle of book X. At the least he would have had to insert an entire quaternion which would have had several times as much material as the letters about the Christians, and it would have been easier to just insert the entirety of book X at the end.

If the letters about the Christians are a forgery by Giocondo, then either a/ Giocondo fabricated considerably more than the letters about the Christians or b/ he had access to two previously unknown manuscripts of the letters and inserted material into one manuscript on the basis of the other manuscript. Option b/ seems entirely implausible.

Andrew Criddle

Again, your suggestions do NOT make much sense. You invent your own implausible scenarios.

You cannot determine what could have or should have happened when you have NO actual evidence to support your inventions.

aa5874 · 02-11-2013, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Thanks for the clarification.

For the sake of the argument what if the late forger simply changed the name of another group being persecuted (such as "Jews") which was originally preserved in Pliny's letters to Trajan to the group name of "Christians"?

One historian tells us that Trajan had 2000 Jews of the city of Emmaus crucified in the early 2nd century. Pliny may have been asking Trajan what he was supposed to do with the Jews.

Apart from the general improbability IMO of this suggestion, we have not only the references to Christians but also the references to Christ (e.g. sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god). I'm not sure what the original would be here if the letters originally dealt with Jews.

Andrew Criddle

The word "Christ" was NOT derived from Jesus. The word Christ is derivative of the Greek word for Anointing or the Anointed and is found in Hebrew Scripture. The word Christ PREDATES Jesus.

David was Christ in Hebrew Scripture. Kings were Christ in Hebrew Scripture.

One cannot assume that Only Jesus was believed to be Anointed [Christ].

In the Pliny letter no-one is identified as the Anointed [Christ] and the author of the letter knows NOTHING of Jesus or had ever encountered Christians and what they believed up to c 115 CE if the letter is NOT a forgery.

Clivedurdle · 02-11-2013, 06:29 AM

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For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found....

Isn't this backwards?

I thought the problem was that all the shopkeepers had a major drop in income because people were no longer buying animals for sacrifice because they had become xian! There were thus complaints to the powers that be.

Archaeology is actually pretty precise nowadays, it might be possible to track changes in animal production and sales. And draw conclusions.

aa5874 · 02-11-2013, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found....

Isn't this backwards?

I thought the problem was that all the shopkeepers had a major drop in income because people were no longer buying animals for sacrifice because they had become xian! There were thus complaints to the powers that be.

Archaeology is actually pretty precise nowadays, it might be possible to track changes in animal production and sales. And draw conclusions.

In the letter, Pliny hastened to write to Trajan because the Christian superstition was increasing--the numbers were getting out of control.

The Pliny Christians were also engaged in Animal Sacrifice.

It is clear that Pliny's Christians were NOT of the Jesus cult.

Pliny letter to Trajan

Quote:

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved.

For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms...

Clivedurdle · 02-11-2013, 07:38 AM

Quote:

The Pliny Christians were also engaged in Animal Sacrifice.

That is not there!

Quote:

But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found....

The xians caused the temples to be deserted and a major drop of income to the temples. It seems possible to reverse this, people were returning and buying animals for sacrifice.

The xians were not doing animal sacrifice!

aa5874 · 02-11-2013, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

The Pliny Christians were also engaged in Animal Sacrifice.

That is not there!

Quote:

But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found....

The xians caused the temples to be deserted and a major drop of income to the temples. It seems possible to reverse this, people were returning and buying animals for sacrifice.

The xians were not doing animal sacrifice!

That is there. The Pliny letter is about the Christians who sacrificied Animals and worshiped in Temples.

If it was NOT the Christians who were sacrificing animals then you have NOTHING there.

Please, identify who were sacrificing animals if it was NOT the Christians???

In the Pliny letter the Christians numbers were increasing with an increase in Animal sacrifice.

If the Christians numbers were increasing and they were NOT the animal sacrificers then we should expect LESS animal sacrifice and that the temples to remain deserted. We would expect Pliny to tell Trajan that that animal sacrifice is decreasing and the Temples are still being deserted.

The reverse is found in the Pliny letter.

1. Increased Christian numbers.

2. Simultaneous INCREASE in Animal Sacrifice.

3. Simultaneous increased meeting in Temples.

The Christians in the Pliny letter were NOT those of the Jesus cult. There is no evidence that Christians of the Jesus cult sacrificed animals and worshiped in Temples in the 2nd century.

Chili · 02-11-2013, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

The xians caused the temples to be deserted and a major drop of income to the temples. It seems possible to reverse this, people were returning and buying animals for sacrifice.

The xians were not doing animal sacrifice!

Smart, eat the heifer yourself and just give them the what is left.

Chili · 02-11-2013, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

That is there. The Pliny letter is about the Christians who sacrificied Animals and worshiped in Temples.

If it was NOT the Christians who were sacrificing animals then you have NOTHING there.

Please, identify who were sacrificing animals if it was NOT the Christians???

In the Pliny letter the Christians numbers were increasing with an increase in Animal sacrifice.

If the Christians numbers were increasing and they were NOT the animal sacrificers then we should expect LESS animal sacrifice and that the temples to remain deserted. We would expect Pliny to tell Trajan that that animal sacrifice is decreasing and the Temples are still being deserted.

The reverse is found in the Pliny letter.

1. Increased Christian numbers.

2. Simultaneous INCREASE in Animal Sacrifice.

3. Simultaneous increased meeting in Temples.

The Christians in the Pliny letter were NOT those of the Jesus cult. There is no evidence that Christians of the Jesus cult sacrificed animals and worshiped in Temples in the 2nd century.

I see animal sacrifice to be equal to 'Billy Graham' kind of Christians wherein they sacrifice the animal man for their ideal = idol worship. Nothing to do with Billy, but his kind of self-serving Christianity, which is typical of human desire that the Jews tried to avoid, and hence the symbolism.

. . . because I do not think that ever a fat heifer was burned in a temple. You should try it sometimes. Just take a can of gas an tell your friend to bring one too.

Oh, and don't forget the beer.

Clivedurdle · 02-11-2013, 10:28 AM

aa, do you not understand passive clauses?

rlogan · 02-11-2013, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found....

Isn't this backwards?

I thought the problem was that all the shopkeepers had a major drop in income because people were no longer buying animals for sacrifice because they had become xian! There were thus complaints to the powers that be.

Archaeology is actually pretty precise nowadays, it might be possible to track changes in animal production and sales. And draw conclusions.

If the passage is genuine, then the service economy to the established religions is in duress, and returns upon Pliny's persecution of Christians.

As an economist, one of the things I have tried to emphasize is the simple justice and boost to standard of living when we eliminate the need to buy favor from Gods through their earthly profiteers. The last supper renditions of communal meal are more representative of the Eucharest in early Christianity. Not a wafer and a shot glass of grape juice - but eating a big feast.

I'm surprised how almost nobody appreciates the distinction between eating a loaf of bread yourself vs giving it to a wealthy hypocrite. One makes you feel wonderful and love life. The other makes you hungry and pissed off. So of course Christianity is going to be well received.

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02-11-2013, 10:28 AM	#49
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	aa, do you not understand passive clauses?

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