aa5874

The biography of Jesus in gMark is NOT at all from the Pauline writings. It would appear the author of gMark used Hebrew scripture, The Septuagint or some similar source to invent his Jesus.

There is no information whatsoever in the Pauline writings that Jesus was a carpenter or a carpenter's son.

kcdad

Walking ten miles to return a penny
chopping down a cheery tree
throwing a dollar across the Delaware River
wrestling a bear
standing alone against the Mexican Army
The same way Jesus was.

Duh. No. Spirits don't impregnate women.

Neither did Jesus... unless you believe everything you read...

Of course, not.
I don't know that they ever did.

Of course not.
Certainly

No, of course not. No one claims that Moses and Elijah were resurrected.

Not so much Crockett, but yes, they are regularly resurrected.

Awkward question... you apparently don't understand resurrection.
I've seen pictures of just that, but no they did not.
Of course, not. Physical bodies do not rise into the air.

metaphorically speaking... absolutely.

There is loads and loads of truth... there just is a lot of exaggeration, metaphor and mythologizing.
Things don't have to be factual to be true... ever read a Rudyard Kipling "Just So" story or Aesop's Fables, or any other morality stories... Moses didn't talk to God face to face in front of a burning bush either.

kcdad

I have no problem with your interpretation at all. I understand that Mark, Matthew, Luke and John all had political motives to the way they wrote their "gospels".

There is little advantage to demanding that changes between the gospels to be intentional misrepresentations, they could be different perspectives, copy errors, mistranslations and / or intentional apologetics.

kcdad

Which of course leaves you with the conclusion it was "invented".... how does that happen again?

and WHY? Why invent Jesus out of thin air? Do you have any other examples of this throughout history?

spamandham

They are not misrepresentations, they are intentional reimplementations due to different theologies. That's *why* the gospels were rewritten. In this particular case, a copy error or mistranslation is really not possible, since both were originally penned in Greek, and we are talking about a wholesale rewrite of the quote and not just a simple error.

So we are stuick with trying to explain why the two authors disagreed. If Jesus was historical and 'the artisan' refers to an ordinary trade, then there is no theological overtone to Jesus vs. his father being the carpenter/mason/whatever. The HJ+fluff perspective requires just shrugging the shoulders.

The change only makes sense if there is a theological overtone to 'the artisan'. This is just one of many cases where there is the same problem...nuanced changes between the gospels that are too complex to be accidental, perplexing from the perspective of "the gospels are history + magic fluff", but which make perfect sense when they are understood to be fundamentally theological origins stories akin to the Pentateuch.

Kapyong

Gday,

Are you fucking kidding?

You really, truly believe that there are NO examples in history of personages being invented?

Wow.


K.

kcdad

and yet... no examples?

Give me a list of let's say... one per century of written history... nah... one per millennium. So 4 or 5 such inventions of persons in history.

aa5874

Now, these are the far and wide myths of George Washington, Abraham Licoln and Davey Crockett combined?

How does a story that a man cut down a cherry-tree makes him mythical when there is a birth and death certificate for the man?

You put forward a most absurd notion that historical and physical evidence are useless to determine the historicity of a character.


Your reponse is self-contradictory. You still imply there is little truth to the Jesus stories and you have not even named a single corroborative source for your Jesus.

Now how why do you think Moses could NOT talk to God face to face in a mythical fable?

IN mythical fables anything can happen.

In the mythical fables called the Gospels, Jesus can be the offspring of the Holy Ghost, be tempted by the Devil on the pinnacle of the Temple, bring dead people back to life, walk on water, transfigure with the once dead Moses and Elijah, resurrect and ascend to heaven and still come back to earth a second time for dead believers first.

Please tell me the loads of truth about Jesus?

spamandham

Adam, Eve, Cain and his family, Abel, Noah and his family, Abraham and his family, Moses...

It's exceedingly unlikely that there is any historicity to any of these people whatsoever, even though they are described as existing in real places (excluding Eden), and the stories involve other real historical figures. They are characters playing theological roles in the Jewish foundational stories.

kcdad

Wow... couldn't get out of Genesis... well that was too easy. I dare you to find any serious scholar who thinks that the stories of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel (which is part of the same story), or Noah are meant to be factual, historical and about real, living, specific, human beings... I don't know what your problem with Abram and Moses is...

Adam and Eve are symbolic representations of the the human race... the Hebrew word Adam means Mankind. It is an allegory, a parable. There was no such person Adam or Eve. Not even the most serious Jews think they were real people. It is an invention of the ignorant pagan Romans who took over the leadership of the Roman Church. (Cain and Abel are part of the Adam and Eve story representing the transition from a horticultural pastoral society to an agrarian one.) Noah, a Jewish interpretation of old Babylonian stories about creation, in the same way Job is such a Jewish adaptation of Mesopotamian folklore. Moses literally one who draws out" is possibly Amenmesse, as described here:
http://www.aldokkan.com/egypt/amenmesse.htm
You have to realize at the time there was no nation of Israel, no kingdom, no Hebrews no Jews... this is history retold many centuries later from a specific Judean perspective.

The challenge is to find examples of these fictional people in other sources... did any other culture ever do this?
Was Siddhartha a real person?
Krishna?
Mohammad?
Joseph Smith Jr.?
L. Ron Hubbard?

Do I really need to go through The Bible, allegory by parable, and explain it all to you?

Do I really need to go through The Bible and point out all of the historical figures in it such as Cyrus, Solomon, Herod, Paul, etc????