Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 03-05-2013, 05:55 PM

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It seems unlikely that the author of II Thessalonians meant to refer to Christianity as a "strong delusion" - don't you think?

I don't. The original Messianic believers in the NT were not known as 'Christians', the word was foreign to them.
It is a term and name of a political religious monstrosity that arose and murdered and supplanted the true faith with a paganized parody, and a brass snake on a stick for a god.
Yet men are blind and stupid enough to accept the claims of this murderous and greedy religious traversity.
Damn the christian Whore and all of her whoring daughters.

Chili · 03-05-2013, 07:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Ken Brown

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Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Toto, no, I wasn't referencing that site, but yes, I was thinking along the lines of those Scriptures.

For myself, I see a "strong delusion" upon those who think that to justify the wicked, it takes murdering or the killing of the innocent and righteous. This is the "strong delusion" I was referring to. More or less, the only way forgiveness can be achieved is to put the righteous and innocent to death in the place of the wicked. Isn't this delusional thinking? KB

That does sound like delusional thinking to me, but is this the same "strong delusion" that is referred to in II Thessalonians?

Why did you use that particular phrase?

Hi Toto, yes, I was referring to II Thessalonians. I just feel that belief in the killing of the innocent and the righteous, just so that the wicked could have a substitute taking their place and paying the penalty of their wickedness, is delusional. Those who have the belief that JUSTICE requires that the wicked have an innocent and righteous one die in their place and pay for their sin are most definitely under a "strong delusion." The soul that sins shall die. KB

But I do not believe that people ever were like that. You read this wrong, but I should not interfere.

Ken Brown · 03-06-2013, 03:38 AM

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Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Toto, yes, I was referring to II Thessalonians. I just feel that belief in the killing of the innocent and the righteous, just so that the wicked could have a substitute taking their place and paying the penalty of their wickedness, is delusional. Those who have the belief that JUSTICE requires that the wicked have an innocent and righteous one die in their place and pay for their sin are most definitely under a "strong delusion." The soul that sins shall die. KB

You seem to be describing Christianity here - the idea that the innocent and righteous Jesus died in place of the wicked to pay for their sins.

It seems unlikely that the author of II Thessalonians meant to refer to Christianity as a "strong delusion" - don't you think?

Hi Toto, most assuredly. The Strong Delusion came in upon those who attacked the flock, and destroyed it, and a false gospel rose up in the place of the true Gospel. The false gospel of punishing the innocent and righteous in the place of sinners is delusional, don't you think? KB

Ken Brown · 03-06-2013, 04:02 AM

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Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown

Hi Toto, yes, I was referring to II Thessalonians. I just feel that belief in the killing of the innocent and the righteous, just so that the wicked could have a substitute taking their place and paying the penalty of their wickedness, is delusional. Those who have the belief that JUSTICE requires that the wicked have an innocent and righteous one die in their place and pay for their sin are most definitely under a "strong delusion." The soul that sins shall die. KB

But I do not believe that people ever were like that. You read this wrong, but I should not interfere.

Hi Chili, people are like that today. They believe that true justice requires that the only good child should be punished in the place of wicked children. KB

Toto · 03-06-2013, 12:47 PM

Do you really think that Paul or whoever wrote II Thessalonians meant that this central Christian doctrine was a delusion? Does that mean that you think this is an anti-Christian argument? Why is this letter in the NT?

I'm just trying to understand your argument.

Ken Brown · 03-06-2013, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Do you really think that Paul or whoever wrote II Thessalonians meant that this central Christian doctrine was a delusion? Does that mean that you think this is an anti-Christian argument? Why is this letter in the NT?

I'm just trying to understand your argument.

Hi Toto, no I don't. Paul's concept of the True Gospel is completely foreign to the false gospel (the delusional one) which is believed by most today. The strong delusion that Paul was speaking about is a twisting and distorting of the True Gospel that he believed in. This twisting and distorting of the true Gospel is how the false gospel of substitutionalism began (the innocent and righteous killed in the place of the wicked). At the time of Paul, there was an onslaught of false teachers and doctrines that were invading the One True Church. Here is a list of some examples:

1. Paul spoke of the Galatians accepting "another" gospel (Gal 1:6-9).

2. Paul also spoke of the Corinthians easily accepting another "Jesus" and gospel (2 Cor 11:4).

3. Paul predicted that some of the Ephesian elders would join in with the invading wolves and not spare the Flock (Acts 20:29-30).

4. Peter said that false teachers were among them, and they were twisting and distorting what Paul wrote (2 Pet 2:1-3, 2 Pet 3:15-18).

5. Jude warns about those who have "secretly" slipped in amongst them and to contend for the faith that was FIRST delivered, for these ungodly false teachers would turn the Grace of Elohim into licentiousness (someone dying in your stead so you don't have to TURN from sin) (Jude 1:3-4).

Hopefully, this gives you a little better idea of where I am coming from. KB

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03-06-2013, 12:47 PM	#15
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Do you really think that Paul or whoever wrote II Thessalonians meant that this central Christian doctrine was a delusion? Does that mean that you think this is an anti-Christian argument? Why is this letter in the NT? I'm just trying to understand your argument.

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