Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 04-23-2013, 07:16 AM

Here is what I think. When Moses heard these words and caught a glimpse of the lower YHWH from behind (that is, from the direction of the Created World) he was in a state of not having to eat or drink for forty days and forty nights. When the Elders saw a clear vision of a figure on a throne on a sapphire pavement (Exodus 24: 10-11) they were still in a state of having to eat and drink. This clear vision is accordingly a much lower grade. We are even told why: they only saw the God of Israel. When Isaiah clearly saw a form in the Temple, it was only אדני not יהוה (Have a look). Ezekiel’s vision was of the same lower grade. So was the vision of Akatri’el Yah in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement by the last Jewish High Priest, Yishma’el. (Yishma’el was a Sadducee, but he is the authority behind the Rabbinic metaphysical and mystical tradition. Think about this amazing fact). Now, there is a misrepresentation in the Church Fathers (I can’t give references at the moment) to the effect that Isaiah must have seen further than Moses because he saw a defined figure. This is rubbish. It is, however, a neat trick to devalue the Torah. It also means that if a 'heretic' put Moses’s revelation in its rightful place by pointing out what I have just said, that Moses only caught a glimpse of the interaction between God and Creation, he could be falsely (or stupidly) accused of devaluing the same revelation, In the process, the distinction between different levels of manifestation of God could be misrepresented as a distinction between two gods. In the same process, heretical corollary, that Isaiah had a lower vision, could be misrepresented as a claim by the heretics that Isaiah was only aware of the just god

stephan huller · 04-23-2013, 07:20 AM

Marqe on the being in the sapphire throne - "All that is above and below is obedient to the Glory ... a sapphire stone is a throne for the Glory." Ephrem thinks Jesus was on that throne:

Quote:

In the vision of the sapphire [throne] He gathered Himself up and sat upon it. He unfolded and filled the heavens, though everything was in His fist. Himself He shewed in space and shewed Himself everywhere. We fancied that He was in space but everything was filled with Him. He who was small that He might be on a level with us, was great that he might enrich us. He was small and great again that He might make us great. Had he been small and not great, He had been small and would have made us small. Because he was fancied to be weak, therefore He was small and great.

Let us marvel how that by being small He made our smallness great! Yet if He had not been great also He would have made our mind small since it would have thought him weak and would have been made less in that it thought so [i.e. that Christ was just 'little']. He is a Being of Whose greatness we are not capable, nor even of His littleness. He was great; we got ourselves bewildered; and He was little; and we got ourselves into guilt. In all things he laboured with us. He willed to teach us two things, that it was He and yet it was not He. He made Himself a countenance in His love that His servants might look upon Him. Again that we might not harm ourselves by thinking 'this is His form' from form to form did He change in order to teach us that He had no form, and though He departed not from the shape of man, yet in His changes of it He did not depart from it. [Ephrem, Hymn Thirty One]

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04-23-2013, 07:16 AM	#21
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Here is what I think. When Moses heard these words and caught a glimpse of the lower YHWH from behind (that is, from the direction of the Created World) he was in a state of not having to eat or drink for forty days and forty nights. When the Elders saw a clear vision of a figure on a throne on a sapphire pavement (Exodus 24: 10-11) they were still in a state of having to eat and drink. This clear vision is accordingly a much lower grade. We are even told why: they only saw the God of Israel. When Isaiah clearly saw a form in the Temple, it was only אדני not יהוה (Have a look). Ezekiel’s vision was of the same lower grade. So was the vision of Akatri’el Yah in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement by the last Jewish High Priest, Yishma’el. (Yishma’el was a Sadducee, but he is the authority behind the Rabbinic metaphysical and mystical tradition. Think about this amazing fact). Now, there is a misrepresentation in the Church Fathers (I can’t give references at the moment) to the effect that Isaiah must have seen further than Moses because he saw a defined figure. This is rubbish. It is, however, a neat trick to devalue the Torah. It also means that if a 'heretic' put Moses’s revelation in its rightful place by pointing out what I have just said, that Moses only caught a glimpse of the interaction between God and Creation, he could be falsely (or stupidly) accused of devaluing the same revelation, In the process, the distinction between different levels of manifestation of God could be misrepresented as a distinction between two gods. In the same process, heretical corollary, that Isaiah had a lower vision, could be misrepresented as a claim by the heretics that Isaiah was only aware of the just god

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